Hey Reader!
So in preparation for actually telling you about this post, I think I need to make five caveats first (which, coincidentally, will also introduce the post, so it's not so bad, but five caveats at the start of a post is a new one even for me). But before we launch into that, we're looking at the best archers in the game today!
So first, I have to call this post "Centaur Edition" because it's almost certainly going to cause some disagreement among the rest of the team here, so I decided to put my name in the title to make it easier to do replies from my colleagues who are not going to like some of my criteria or decisions in what follows, :P
Second caveat: since I'm not breaking this down between evil and good, this is going to combine models from both, so expect to see more Forces of Good models in this ranking as they are generally better at shooting. That's not because I like Forces of Good more, that's just because Forces of Evil has more monsters and war beasts, so Forces of Good tends to be better at shooting to counter those.
Third caveat: I'm only looking at warrior models for this comparison, mostly because we already reviewed the heroes in a previous podcast (which is admittedly old, as it was pre-Mablung/Anborn among other archers), but also because some of the special rules/Might point discrepancies make them hard to compare to each other, so I figured warrior profiles were closer in value and form to each other. This also means that since every ranged siege weapon has a hero attached to it, I have not included siege weapons in this ranking.
Fourth caveat: in my opinion there's a difference between an archer and a skirmisher, so you will see no evaluation of throwing weapons in this ranking. I'm also defining an "archer" as someone who shoots at least 18" with their shot, so I'll consider 12" shots and shorter as part of the skirmisher ranking. So if you're looking for goblin prowlers in this ranking, that's why they aren't on here, :P
And final caveat: I'm using a criteria for this comparison that will guide my thinking on them. I'm ranking the archers on three categories: damage potential (which weighs the Shoot Value and Strength of the archer's weapon to determine how likely they are to damage a target, which I suspect a lot of people look at when weighing the effectiveness of an archer), resilience (not weighted as highly, but an archer who dies quickly won't contribute as much as one who can survive incursions against hostile strikes/fire), and utility (which is defined here as, "filling the roles that archers are typically used to fill based on the scenario," including holding objectives, "board control" by encouraging enemies to avoid moving through specific parts of the board, pinch hitting in melee combat as needed whether by spear supporting or being thrown into the enemy en masse to overwhelm them, etc.). So if you disagree with the criteria, naturally that will skew the way you read the results.
One place where this may come up, for example, is that I have not considered cost in this analysis, so for people looking for, say, Moria Goblins, Ruffians, Orc Trackers, or any number of other low-cost models in this list, first off I agree that quantity has a quality all its own (I run Shire, for those who are newer to the blog, and they didn't make the cut), but we have not used that as a criteria for this ranking. So just because an army fields archers that are not among the best in the game does not mean that their archery is poor: it means that they are (hopefully) getting good value out of lower quality archers to meet their needs.
But that doesn't entitle poor quality archers to a place on this list. So there. So with no further ado, let's hit the list!
#10: Moria Goblins from the Assault on Lothlorien Legendary Legion
PC: GamesWorkshop |
See, I included some goblins for you! These guys place low on the list because they are still 5+ Shoot with S2 shortbows, but if that's the case - literally the worst starting statline for an archer in the game - why did they make the list? Their guaranteed +1 to wound against most models makes them effectively S4, which is excellent damage potential for archery.
The issue of course is that they are hitting on 5s and 6s, so while other models may wound less often, they also hit far more often, and that means their ceiling for damage is better than these guys. But they still make the list thanks to this nifty special rule, even ahead of models with a 4+ Shoot Value with S2 bows (like Warriors of Rohan, Warriors of Minas Tirith, Khandish Warriors of various kinds, Corsairs, and Easterlings).
#9: Rohan Outriders / Forces of Good Rangers
Two of the oldest models I own |
Rohan Outriders are great: D4 is respectable for an archer, as is their 3+ Shoot Value with a 24" range. The fact that Rohan Outriders can be mounted on horses means that they can quickly and effectively redeploy if needed, and they can borrow a Stand Fast regardless of range, which makes them great for camping on objectives.
The issue with these guys, though, is that they are only F3 with S3, so if they get caught they will likely be removed in short order by almost anyone that charges them, so holding objectives is not easy for them. And since they only have a S2 bow, dealing wounds is actually quite hard for these guys: you wound about half as much as a S4 bow, and in general less often than a S3 bow, and that puts them down here.
Similarly, Rangers of Arnor / Rangers of Gondor / Blackroot Vale Archers / Dwarf Rangers with Dwarf Longbows may not have the same special rules as the Rohan Outrider, but they all start at F4, the humans can spear support the front rank to help while providing close fire support, and the dwarf rangers come with other special rules to help them fill the typical archer roles that you need in an army, all of which I felt was worthy of placing at the same level, so I'm grouping these guys together as they are too close to call.
#8: Watchers of Karna with Bows
PC: GamesWorkshop |
These guys are basically Rohan Outriders with a few exceptions: you get access to poison which helps your damage potential, you start at F4 to help you maintain an objective, you get Resistant to Magic to keep you from being moved off of an objective, and you can be put them in a howdah to provide excellent supporting fire if I'm not mistaken (not to mention you're immune to taking Courage Tests for break checks, if I recall correctly, so you'll stick around longer).
Not a bad model, but the S2 starting point with rerolling 1s to wound is not a reliable way of dealing damage compared to some of the others on this list. You will roll 1s, but the fact that a lot of models in the range are wounded on 6s makes the reroll unlikely to work, which is why they finished 8th on our list. But as far as Forces of Evil archers go, these guys are among the best you get.
#7: Uruk-Hai Scouts with Uruk-Hai Bows / Dwarf Warriors with Dwarf Bows
I should finalize my dwarf painting scheme... |
These guys may only have a 4+ Shoot and an 18" range, but the presence of a S3 hit coupled with good melee prowess - and in the case of the dwarves, high Defense at D6 - these guys are arguably better at dealing ranged damage consistently than those that came before them while still fulfilling the full range of things archers are expected to perform for you.
And considering that the scouts have Woodland Creature and can get 8" move if you have Mauhur (and sometimes you'll get that bonus for free if you field a legendary legion), their ability to fill the utility role only gets better based on your list building choices.
Not much to say here: decent chance to hit with decent damage is excellent.
#6: Ents with Throwing Stones
I don't like the standard ent sculpt, so here's "Vivaldi's Four Seasons," WIP |
So ents have an 18" range - which is my cutoff for range for this ranking - and they do a S10 hit, which is a really good chance to wound generally in this game, but it's worlds beyond most archery in this game, and stronger even than most siege weapons.
And with a 4+ Shoot, that's actually not a bad chance to hit as well. So while you cannot field these guys en masse at anything less than 2000 pts, as far as archer cover and fire suppression go, these models are great!
Tack onto this that the presence of an ent will often redirect the flow of models toward another place, and they do firing lanes and board control very well. Plus they are very rarely going to flee an objective, and driving one off of an objective is very hard to do, so they are great at the utility category all around.
#5: Warriors of Dale with Esgaroth Bows / Citadel Guards with Longbows / Unarmored Elven Archers
Don't care what they say: I like Citadel Guard |
Warriors of Dale and unarmored elven archers (Wood Elf Warriors and Mirkwood Rangers) get the S3 at 24" with a 3+ Shoot that a lot of factions prize, which is excellent. What places them behind the next few entries is that you are only D3-4 and F4-5 with S3, so if you are charged you are more resilient and effective than most of the previous profiles, but not as good as the next few.
And while Citadel Guard may only have a 4+ hit, they make up for this with the ability to be mounted with the Bodyguard special rule, making them great objective holders, so long as your army leader is resilient or not near the fighting, which is basically every high-tier Minas Tirith hero. And with the ability to quickly redeploy to a new firing position, Citadel Guard are a great fire support option.
#4: Uruk-Hai Crossbowmen / Iron Hills Crossbowmen / Corsair Arbalesters
PC: GamesWorkshop |
All crossbows in the game sport S4 at 24" with a 4+ Shoot, which is phenomenal damage potential. And with the presence of F4 and S3-4 if someone closes, moving them off of an objective is not easy either. Tack onto this that they are all D5-6 at least some of the time (the arbalesters are less resilient when engaged in melee, but sport the D6 at range which is nice), it makes them quite resilient.
Mirkwood Rangers make up for this a bit with the Knife Fighters special rule, but ask anyone who has played them and they'll tell you that when wounds are being rolled it's a bad day for them (as most models in the game wound them on 4s).
The only drawback (and what places them behind the next one on our list) is that they cannot move and shoot on the same turn. This reduces their utility slightly, and that slight edge cost them the third place spot.
#3: Beornings with Greatbows
PC: Forgeworld |
To start off, it bears repeating that this is not a good bow, it's a greatbow! XD (also dang, two jokes in one line - I'm really on a roll today)
Okay, seriously though: these guys are S4 at 24" with a 4+ Shoot just like the crossbows before them, but in addition you can move up to 3" first before firing. That's a hair better than a crossbow, even before looking at the chasse that carries it.
Admittedly, they have lower defense than crossbows in general, but that actually matters less than it seems because of the rest of the profile. While you're only D4 instead of D5-6, your resilience is actually better in some respects because you have 2 Wounds instead of 1, and since you're F5 S4, if someone charges you they are not likely to move you off of the objective without serious commitment.
Add onto this that they have a good Courage value and come in an army list with plenty of distractions to avoid people shooting at them, and you have a good baseline for everything you want a ranged attacker to do. All around, a fantastic archer.
#2: Armored Elven Archers
Still finalizing the painting scheme |
In a move that surprises basically no one, armored elven archers from any number of elven factions are high on this list. With S3 at 24" with a 3+ Shoot, they deal good damage at range to their foes. And with F5 D5 to back that up, they are very effective at holding ground and keeping it for you.
The fact that you can hold objectives reliably on C5 and can win ties against most people who charge you is only an added benefit on top of their already excellent shooting prowess. Add onto this that you can also redeploy through woodland terrain quickly and easily is just further gravy on top.
Perhaps unsurprisingly, elves feature high on this list, but it begs the question: who comes in higher than these guys?
#1: Mounted Armored Elven Archers
One of Tiberius's Galadhrim Knights |
Elves on horses! Take everything we said about armored elven archers and increase their speed by a lot, give them a shield to bring them up to D6 thanks to Expert Rider, and they're still the F5 S3 resilient guys we like except that they can preempt potential charges with a countercharge at long range.
And the Rivendell and Lorien varieties both offer something unique from an archer perspective. The Rivendell Knight is more of a softening tool, taking some shots at range but really excels at charging home with their lances and high Fight Value. The Galadhrim Knight, on the other hand, takes advantage of Fleetfoot with an insane amount of movement, making them excellent skirmish cavalry that, if pressed, can resort to melee with a good level of competence (basically better Rohan Royal Guards with no throwing spears). If you're looking for tactics on how to use them, as well as an apologetic for the models, check out Tiberius's post here.
If you're looking for archers - admittedly the most expensive archers in the game, sans Khandish charioteers if I'm remembering correctly - these are the best there is.
Conclusion
Now someone's going to say, "Blah blah, Khandish chariots," or "Blah blah, Haradrim with poison," and I hear you - a lot of those guys came in around 11-13 on the list. The issue with all of those is that the 4+ Shoot is a bad starting place, and since Khandish models in particular are incentivized to move, it will often drop to a 5+ Shoot, which is not a good starting point for S2 archery. To be honest, I felt stretched at times to include S2 archery at all, as there was so much S3 archery that I found the only way to even work them into the equation was to group a lot of models, and I felt bad about that (but if I hadn't, it would have literally only been the top five spots split up, which is boring).
So I'm sorry to Khand and Umbar in general, but that's how the cookie crumbles. In an Evil Only ranking I think they are close to the middle of the pack, but in an all warriors ranking I think they fall behind. Get a 3+ Shoot if you want to make the list.
Watching the stars,
Centaur
"We watch the skies for the great tides of evil or change that are sometimes marked there." ~ Firenze, Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix
Do Warg Marauders sit above or below the LL Moria Goblin?
ReplyDeleteThe Warg Marauders can actually be taken in that Legion, so they're probably sitting at about the same. They're faster and can full move and shoot, but that 5+ Shoot Value makes them pretty unreliable (because they will suffer the penalty for moving and shooting when they make a full move).
DeleteSo this was one of the shockers for me! It actually sits below the archer, and here's why: while the marauders _can_ shoot even while in combat, they don't contribute to the melee attack total if they do, so you overwhelmingly don't see them shooting while in combat. Add onto this how difficult it can be to shoot while in combat without having the chance of hitting your own guys, and the math for dealing wounds to the enemy actually goes down even more thanks to that, so that didn't actually help on the math for archers (as a skirmisher that's a different story, but that's also a different category for this series).
DeleteThe other issue is that, unlike the Moria Goblin Warrior with Orc Bow, they are _heavily_ incentivized to move, so while the Moria Goblin Warrior has a 5+ Shoot, the Warg Marauder is effectively a 6+ Shoot, and that means, even with two people, your chances of hitting are not great. So he's top 15 (and especially in the Assault on Lothlorien legendary legion thanks to more hits resulting in more wounds), but not top ten.
Now, toward questions that also occur below, if we factored in cost, he'd drop even lower, because the amount you pay for the amount of shooting you get is not good at all. The legion naturally helps, but the sheer number of misses you get on average means the math just doesn't hold up for the model. Which is sad, because I love flavorful models, but both on its face and in practice they are not great archers. Which holds up: overwhelmingly people take them for powerful charges, and less for ranged fire support.
cost aside, Khandish charioteers can make a full move and still shoot; warg marauders can be engaged in a fight and still shoot... ;) There are advantages in other units. But one can argue that the cost actually is a big factor considering choices of archers and their usefulness - e.g. would it be better to take a couple of Dale archers or rather the windlance (which translates into hitting harder or hitting more often dilemma )
ReplyDeleteI'm not sure any archer could compete with an Ent if you don't take cost into consideration... 😅
DeleteThe Warg Marauders can shoot after a full move, same as the chariots - but I don't think anyone wants to shoot while engaged in combat if they can help it (as it takes away their bonus melee attacks). Ents are pretty beastly - though I do wonder if Catapult Trolls should technically count (they're listed as Siege Veterans, but they don't have Might/Will/Fate) . . .
DeleteGreat point - in truth, the whole reason I had to phrase it all as caveats is because of the fact that I didn't look at cost, :P The issue with looking at cost is that it brings into question the points level, and that will vary WIDELY in terms of what is "viable" or even available at a specific points level. If we're comparing things at 300 points, hobbit archers are probably top three archers in the game because you can have 10 of them in an army of easily 30 guys. At 800 points they aren't going to make the top ten. So as I stepped back I decided to just look at the profile, and not within the context of cost.
DeleteNow, that being said, a "best [THING] at [X POINTS LEVEL]" post is not a bad idea. I might try that in the future, though that also means a looooot of permutations of the same list, so...probably won't happen until at least April because I'm running a tournament next week and I'm in another tournament a few weeks after, :)
might be a little offtop, but let me digress: I cannot help it but once and again I keep comparing MESBG to the historical units and events (it is a BATTLE game after all). And I am wondering about the penalties that archers suffer when shooting. Some of them historically and practically make more sense (e.g. when you think of shields/defense or having less archers that were historically used because of the playstyle: otherwise there would be long and boring shooting battles). But moving? Especially crossbowmen, when there were plenty of riders armed with crossbows in Europe, not to mention Asia-wide effective archers on horsebacks formations? And the other thing is the strength: a more powerful bow requires a stronger archer; stronger archers should shoot better (more accurately) with less powerful bows. And crossbows required less training (and with tools less strength) than bows, especially English longbows. The main difference between a crossbow and a bow was the time gap between shots - the latter required less time "to load", so shot faster - in-game it would mean that a bow could shoot for example twice per turn, and a crossbow only once, but I don't know whether it would be very game-changing/breaking or not, with current meta
ReplyDeleteThis is something that's bothered me for a while - horse archers from antiquity rode in circles to make themselves harder to hit and to have a constant barrage of arrows . . . not only does making your archers form up in a circle not make you any harder to hit, but you often get fewer shots. So . . . no one does it . . . unless you're me: https://tellmeatalegreatorsmall.blogspot.com/2020/08/historical-formations-in-mesbg-tercios.html.
DeleteI would really like to see a similar comparison with points being taken into account. Seeing as that is a major factor effecting if a unit is going to be seen on the table or not. All the other criteria mentioned were very good.
ReplyDeletePutting this out there, with the exception of Watchers of Karna (and maybe Galadhrim Knights), you can and should expect to see all of these guys on the board. Elves (especially Riv-Knights), Rangers of various kinds, and Beornings are very staple shooting options for good, with Uruk-Hai, Goblins, and Corsairs being popular on the evil side. Ents don't show up as often, but probably because of the expense, and probably because of model count.
DeleteHello! Interesting article, compliments for your blog!
ReplyDeleteWhere do the ent models in the picture come from? They look different from tree beard and ents of GW
They are different - I'm the 3d printing guy in our group, and they are Loot Studios models. I didn't much like the standard Ent Warrior model from GW (as it looks too cartoonish and not like the ones from the movies), and the plan is to add Treebeard and Quickbeam this year, as I'm officially starting my army for Fangorn this year. But in the meantime, I like these guys, :)
DeleteHej! These Ents are looking great, are they 3D printed or did you just glue some sticks together in a neat way?:p if 3D printed, which files did you use?
ReplyDeleteCheers!
Nice analysis but I miss some hobbit archers at the first place
ReplyDelete