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Monday, August 21, 2023

Back to Basics: Monsters in MESBG

Good morning gamers,

Last time, we talked about how cavalry work in MESBG and today, we're turning to an element of MESBG that can absolutely alter the way a game can go: how monsters work. When I first got started in the game, things like "Brutal Power Attacks" weren't a thing - and neither was Heroic Strike (every hero had Move, Shoot, and Combat - and that was it). This meant two things with regard to monsters: first, a Monster was quite likely to have a higher Fight Value than anything he was fighting (or at least a tied Fight Value). Second, the go-to tactic for dealing with them was hoping one poor, unfortunate soul would be brave enough to tie them down for a turn - and if the dice were kind, he'd get a 6 while the monster wouldn't and he'd live to do it all over again on another turn. Or . . . you'd just shoot the guy/tie him down with an Immobilize to make him F1 with 1 Attack. My, those were odd times . . .

When the Hobbit rules were released everything changed, since monsters could now do horrible things with the "suicide Bob" who tied them down and heroes could combat warrior Monsters better with the addition of Heroic Strike (which was on EVERYONE back then). When the rules revamp arrived in late 2017, the rules for monsters changed yet again (and what counted as a "monster" became clearer), bringing in a nice balance between the really powerful Brutal Power Attacks that were introduced in the Hobbit rules and the counters you can employ with heroes.

But with no less than FOUR things you can do when you win a fight (and for many Hero monsters you can pick from a few more options), a lot of new players (to say nothing of us old vets who have old rules sets in our heads) might forget some of the nuances of how these rules work. If any of this describes you, strap in as we delve deep into what monsters can do - and can't do - in MESBG (and at the end, we'll talk about how to use them well and fight them well).

What Kinds of Monsters are in MESBG?

Middle-Earth is full of monsters and in MESBG we get lots of different kinds of monsters. As a very general taxonomy, here are the kinds of monsters you can expect to see on the tabletop:
  • Faux Monsters: these are models that have stats very similar to monsters but lack the "Monster" keyword. Examples of this include Wild Warg ChieftainsGiant/Mirkwood Spidersthe Necromancer of Dol Guldur, and Half-Trolls - they may look like monster models, and they may turn your models into goo, but they aren't technically monsters.
  • War Beasts: these are models that have the "Monster" keyword but can't use Brutal Power Attacks. They trade these rules for a host of other rules which are beyond the purviews of this article (you'll have to come back next week to learn about how these things work). There are currently two examples of this kind of "monster": anyone riding a Mumakil and Great Beasts of Gorgoroth.
  • Lumbering Monsters: these are models with the "Monster" keyword and 6" movement. While these models can be either warriors or heroes, they tend to be slow, sit on big bases (usually circular, occasionally an oval), and have MASSIVE investments in stats (most have at least F6, S6, D6, and 3 Attacks/Wounds). Examples of these kinds of models include any kind of Troll, most Entsthe Dark Lord Sauron, and the Balrog.
  • Fast Monsters: these models are slightly faster than the "Lumbering" monsters listed above - they have the "Monster" keyword and have more than 6" of movement, but don't have the Fly special rule. The increased speed on these models usually means their Defense is lower than the Lumbering variety, but that's not always the case. In trade, these models might have some kind of special rule that helps them ignore difficult terrain penalties (some or all types of difficult terrain) or otherwise use their increased speed to get to the targets they want). Some (but not all) of these monsters also have Monsterous Charge - something you don't see on the Lumbering models. Examples of these monsters include Shelob/the Spider QueenBeorn/GrimbeornOgres, and Cave Drakes.
  • Flying Monsters: perhaps the most potent monster class in the game, these models have the "Monster" keyword as well as the Fly special rule, which gives these models an incredible 12" of movement (so long as they don't end their movement in a piece of woodland terrain or in a building). This increased movement - and the ability to ignore control zones when they move - allows the placement of these models to be far easier than other monsters. Examples of these models include Ringwraiths mounted on Fell BeastsGreat EaglesGulavhar, and Dragons (because you should always take the Wings upgrade).
These five kinds of units can have massively different play styles - some boast big, beefy profiles with high points costs, others boast good-not-great profiles at a much reduced cost, and still others can pair their nasty melee profile with ranged attacks or magical powers. With this brief understanding in mind, let's look into three distinctives that make monster models different from other models in the range!

Distinctive #1: Interaction with Obstacles

No matter what kind of monster you are, you're going to have to interact with terrain. Monsters who can't fly will still treat difficult terrain as limiting their movement (not shallow water), they'll still have to move around impassible terrain, and they need to be able to fit between gaps in terrain (and models) like everyone else. Most of the movement-related rules apply to monsters like everyone else.

But this is not true when it comes to obstacles. There are essentially two different kinds of obstacles in the game: things you need to climb up (Climb test), things you need to jump/leap over (Jump/Leap test). Jump/Leap tests are performed exactly the same way, with the only difference being whether it's a vertically high obstacle (like a fence, which triggers a Jump test) or a horizontally long obstacle (like a chasm, which triggers a Leap test). If you read our post for how the new rulebook has changed from the MESBG rules release in 2017, you may recall that the rules for Jump/Leap and Climb tests changed slightly in this edition with regard to charging models (you need to get a 6 on a Jump/Leap test, but not a Climb test - used to be the other way around).

None of this has an effect on monsters, however, since monster models cannot perform Jump, Leap, or Climb tests. Turns out being big (and often stupid/primal) means you don't have the know-how to do sophisticated things like jumping or climbing. To make up for this, the requirements for when you need to make these tests are a bit forgiving: you only have to perform a movement test if the obstacle is more than half the models' height. This means something like a Cave Troll (which stands at ~3" tall) doesn't need to test to climb a fence that is 1" tall or to jump a rivulet that's 1.5" wide. Many terrain obstacles will be more than half your height - and when that's the case, you're going around it.

This means that choke points are HUGE for monsters. Not only do you need to make sure you're sending your monsters towards parts of the board that they can actually reach, but you also need to make sure that you control the areas that will allow you to maneuver around important terrain features (like rivers or alleys).

CORRECTION: The rules for monsters not being able to perform movement tests was in a previous edition and didn't carry over into the current edition. Thanks for mentioning this in the comments!

Maneuvering is key for all units in MESBG, but monsters have more limitations on their movement than just what kinds of obstacles they can move over (and what kinds of difficult terrain can slow them down) - they also have big bases, as we'll see in . . .

Distinctive #2: Paying For Stats (and generally big bases)

The most defining characteristic of a monster is that their stats are high - or at least the combat ones, at any rate. Unless you're a War Beast, you've got at least F5/S5/2A and most are F6/S6/3A or higher. Since most heroes and warriors can only reach F5, this means that most monsters will have a combat advantage when fighting most troops. You'll find the occasional monster that's only F5 (like an Ogre in the Azog's Legion list) who might have the same/lower Fight Value than what's coming up against you, but most monsters live in the F6/F7 realm and while the list of F6 models in the game is quite large, the list of F7 models in the game is not. Sure, some heroes might be able to use Heroic Strike to get up to F6+, but not all can - and most heroes can only do this for a limited time.

Fight Value is only part of the increased stats that monsters get, however. Most monsters are at least S6 (wounding most models on 4s), but many get to S7-8. Of the handful of Monsters that are S5 (the Goblin King of Goblin-town and Dwellers in the Dark), the Goblin King can reach S6 by using Piercing Strike, so Dwellers are really the only Monster models that are going to struggle to wound D6 models. Being monsters, though, does come with an advantage for S5 monsters: they can't be knocked Prone by cavalry (despite being below S6) - this only helps two models, but it's still nice. Being S6+ has several other advantages for monsters, as we'll discuss next when we talk about "Brutal Power Attacks."

In general, monsters pair high-Fight and high-Strength with 3+ Attacks - and it's this trifecta of Fight Value/Strength/Attacks that makes them a force to be reckoned with in combat. Not all monsters have at least 3 Attacks on paper, but all of them CAN get 3 or more Attack dice if the right situations are met. Let's look at the outliers for a moment:
  • Gwaihir and Great Eagles are base 2 Attack models, so if they're charged by someone, they'll be stuck with only 2 Attacks. Being F7-8/S6 helps quite a bit even if they only have 2 Attacks, but rolling a 6-high or 5-high is definitely not a given. Both of these models, however, have Monstrous Charge, so if they charge into models that have a lower Strength than them, they get the Extra Attack/Knock Down rules that you'd normally get with cavalry (see our post from last time about how that works). Note that Monstrous Charge provides these bonuses even if you charge cavalry models, which the normal cavalry-based rules wouldn't provide. 3 Attacks on the charge that turn into three pairs of wounding dice at S6 (or S7 if you keep your army bonus) will kill a lot of things . . .
  • The Spider Queen also only has 2 Attacks base, but with Monstrous Charge in her arsenal, she can also do a ton of damage (and get to 3 Attacks simply by charging someone).
  • Shelob is, at least on paper, the weakest of the named monsters as she begins with just 1 Attack - and while she has Monstrous Charge, she only goes up to 2 Attacks with it. Sure, she has rules that ignore terrain and she's pretty tough (D7 with 6 Wounds/6 Will points for passing her Survival Instinct tests), but in a normal Mordor list, she can't reach 3 Attacks. All of this changed with the release of the Cirith Ungol Legendary Legion in Quest of the Ringbearer, where she picks up a rule that gives her +1 Attack if she's fighting a Man, Elf, Dwarf, or Hobbit - and since "Men" show up in both Good and Evil lists, she can get that extra Attack pretty often (unless your opponent is fielding Uruks, Goblins, or Orcs - which your Orcs/Uruks don't mind fighting). Other monsters (especially of the Ent, Eagle, and Troll variety) as well as Spirit models (like Warriors of the Dead) will prove problematic for her, though . . .
While most monsters boast high Fight Value, Strength, and Attack characteristics, many of them also have high defensive characteristics - namely in the Defense and Wounds categories. While some monsters have low Defense (the Spider Queen is only D4, Dwellers in the Dark/Gulavhar/Ogres/the Goblin King are only D5), most monsters make it to at least D6, which is the "magic number" for average troops (and most archery) to wound them on 6s. D5 models CAN be wounded on 6s by S2 bows (or S2 Hobbits - but beware those cheeky Hobbit Militia with axes!). Some monsters go well beyond D6 and make it to D7 (Mordor Trolls, Shelob, Dragons without the Tough Hide upgrade, Bill/Bert the Trolls), D8 (Ents, Eagles, Beorn/Grimbeorn in bear forms, Gundabad Trolls, Isengard Trolls, Mordor Troll Chieftains), D9 (Dragons with Tough Hides, Smaug, and the Balrog) and even D10 (The Dark Lord Sauron).

This high Defense rating is paired with 3+ Wounds, which means a glancing blow from a warrior or an arrow isn't going to kill the thing. While 3 Wounds is where most monsters live, some go beyond that and have 4 Wounds (Gulavhar, Gundabad Trolls, Troll Brutes), 5 Wounds (Catapult Trolls and the Dark Lord Sauron), 6 Wounds (Shelob, Cave Drakes, and the Watcher in the Water), 7/9 Wounds (Dragons, depending on whether they took Tough Hides or not), 10 Wounds (the Balrog), or 20 Wounds (Smaug).

And it's these defensive stats that actually make dealing with monsters in melee difficult for most heroes - many heroes will rely on Heroic Strike to beat the Fight Value of a monster - getting above F7 is often required to have an advantage against these kinds of units - but even if they win the fight, they still have to wound them multiple times. Some heroes (like Iron Hills Dain, Elendil, Azog most of the time, or Aragorn wielding Anduril) aren't that worried about dealing wounds to monster models, but if you're in the S4-5 camp without a +1 To Wound bonus, you're looking at needing 6s or 5s to wound the guy - and if he's not trapped and you've got 2-3 dice on hand, the chances that you slay this thing after one round is pretty low. That means you're committing a second Might point to risk another round with this guy . . . that's risky.

But with this investment in stats comes two interesting trades that make some players hesitant to use these models: high points cost and large bases. The cheapest monster models are Dwellers in the Dark and Cave Trolls (75-85pts, depending on how you equip your Cave Trolls) and since these aren't heroes, they're 75+ points in addition to the hero who's fielding them. Most monsters cost upwards of 100pts each, which means fielding one of them comes at the exclusion of ~12 average-cost warriors. For every monster you add to your list, you're usually saying goodbye to an entire warband of models - this is why Mordor Trolls and Isengard Trolls are often absent from the tabletop (despite them having excellent stats).

Additionally, monster models have bases that range from 40mm to incredibly massive oval bases (I don't know the dimensions of Smaug's base - if you know it, drop it in the comments - EDIT: it's 231x133mm or roughly 9"x5" in size) and this can make getting your model where you want it incredibly difficult. Sure, monsters can have great stats, but if you can't direct their power where you want it, what are they doing for you? 40mm is quite manageable - and a 60mm base with the Fly special rule can make maneuvering a LOT easier - but the usual story for monsters is that once they get locked into combat, that's where they are for the rest of the game. If you're smart, though, you can get some additional latitude of movement by utilizing . . .

Distinctive #3: Brutal Power Attacks

The Hobbit rules update changed the way "monsters" worked with the introduction of Brutal Power Attacks (BPAs). The three generic BPAs that were introduced in that edition of the rules have remained today, but some have been tweaked a bit. Each was designed to deal with a problem that monster models struggled with that made them subpar options compared to your more run-of-the-mill, man-sized heroes. Before we go into what these BPAs can do, however, we need to address something: Brutal Power Attacks are made instead of making Strikes. This means a few things:
  • If you are supporting a model, you can't make a Brutal Power Attack (so Cave Trolls and Isengard Trolls can't spear-support with a single die and then do a three-die Rend);
  • If you aren't allowed to make Strikes (e.g. affected by Immobilize/et al, started the fight Prone), you can't make Brutal Power Attacks;
  • If you would have gotten a bonus from a special rule/situation (e.g. getting +1 Attack from Monstrous Charge, doubling dice against a trapped/prone opponent), you won't get those bonuses because you aren't making Strikes; and
  • If you get some kind of bonus to Strikes that you make from your weapon (e.g. two-handing, rerolling 1s from Feinting, +1 Strength from a Piercing Strike, +1 To Wound from Scythe Gauntlets), you won't get those bonuses because you aren't making Strikes.
The last thing we need to say about BPAs is that you can only perform one BPA each turn. The most common occurrence where you'd need to remember this is if you have a monster hero who declares a Heroic Combat and uses a BPA to kill the lone blighter who tagged him. If he uses a BPA like Rend (more on that next), he won't be able to use other BPAs (like Hurl) when he's done moving. There are other triggers for this that we'll see in a minute - and most of the time, your monster is probably locked into the only fight he's doing this round, so this is moot. Okay, with this in mind, let's talk about BPAs!

Generic BPA: Rend

Our first stop is the go-to strategy for dealing with most man-sized heroes: Rend. Prior to the addition of this BPA, your only option for dealing with a hero was wounding against their Defense stat - which made dealing with Dwarf heroes in particular quite difficult. Since Cave Trolls didn't have hand-and-a-half hammers (or Burly) at the time, Cave Trolls might find themselves needing 5s To Wound against a D7+ hero (and 6s To Wound against a D9-10 hero) . . . without Might to boost their rolls. Yeah, making these guys work was hard back then if someone big and nasty came up against you.

Enter Rend: Rend allows the monster to direct all of its Attacks against a single model he's engaged with in combat and roll To Wound against its Strength stat. For most models, this is going to be easier - and for most monsters, they'll be wounding the target hero on a 3+. This means two things: first, losing to a monster who chooses to Rend is quite dangerous for a hero. Second, losing to a monster who choses to Rend is dangerous for exactly one model. Rend is limited in its effectiveness when there are two heroes in your fight: sure, you might take out one of them, but the other will still be there on the next turn. If both models have suffered wounds, it may be a better call to make Strikes normally instead of Rending because you can take out two models instead of one.

Another limitation of Rend is that some models don't invest heavily in Defense - or your opponent is a monster who invested as much or more in Strength as he did in Defense - and your probability of wounding hasn't increased at all. While there are some situations where wounding against a model's Strength gives you a WORSE chance of wounding than if you'd allocated Strikes normally (Gulavhar, the Spider Queen, Ogres, Troll Brutes), for most models you'll face, Rend gives you a way of bypassing what your opponent invested in (Defense) and gives your monsters the ability to deal good damage no matter what they're facing.

Generic BPA: Barge

The second generic BPA is Barge. Barge is the only BPA that doesn't innately deal damage to anyone and it's primary use is for something monsters can really benefit from: repositioning. Barge needs to be declared before models start making way after losing a fight (I often interject, "DON'T MOVE ANYONE!" since it's so reflexive to start making way as soon as a fight is lost) and the monster's controlling player gets to move enemy models 3" away from the monster in directions of his choice. Supporting models can be moved as well. Anyone who can't move 3" away are moved as far as they can and are Knocked Prone. Barge is the last thing you can resolve in a fight, so if you've got a Multiple Combat going, you'll want to do this after everyone else has resolved Strikes.

Once you back everyone away, the monster gets to move D6" wherever it wants - including charging again (in which case, it'll get to fight again, just as if it had won a Heroic Combat). A few things should be said about this repositioning: first and foremost, the amount of movement you get after barging is finnicky and unreliable. While you could get 6" of movement to race for an objective or run around a battle line, you could also get 1" of movement and either not be able to charge anyone or basically be fighting the same guys you were fighting before. You can plan for this by making sure there are at least two models you can charge into with 1" of movement while still having a more priority model reachable with a greater amount of movement (but watch those control zones!).

Second, because you can only use one BPA each turn, using Barge prohibits you from using Rend or any other BPA on the same turn. Barge does give you the ability to get a better match-up (or move enemy models away from an objective), but it doesn't allow you to single out an enemy hero and then use Rend (or some other kind of BPA). This means picking the model you want to charge with your variable movement is key, since whoever you're fighting, you'll have to wound normally.

Third, you can't benefit from both a Barge AND a Heroic Combat on the same turn. Just like you can't call a Heroic Combat, join another Heroic Combat, and move some more, so also you can't Barge and move in a Heroic Combat in the same go. Heroic Combats (usually) are declared at the cost of Might, but the movement you get from a successful Combat is known (max movement). Barges are "free," but their benefits are more unpredictable. Monsters can Barge all day long, but with only one exception (Smaug), any monster that chooses to Barge has foregone potentially killing enemy models in trade for increased positioning (and potentially some killing in a second fight).

So why would you Barge? The first situation where Barge looks pretty good is when you have a monster fighting someone who's called Heroic Defense. Heroic Defense might not solve having a lower Fight Value than a monster, but it does take away most of the bite of a Rend (since it doesn't matter which stat they target) AND it makes low-Defense models much harder to kill (see both my post on Heroic Defense for the skinny on Heroic Defense and Rythbyrt's posts on Heroic Strength/Strike for a more in-depth review of the benefits of calling Heroic Defense). Getting natural 6s to wound a hero who solo'd you might not look doable, but shove him out of the way and charge into whoever that guy was trying to protect looks to be a much better option.

The second reason to Barge is to trigger Monstrous Charge. Sometimes you'll have a model that gets much, MUCH better when they're on the charge thanks to having the Monstrous Charge rule (Shelob, Gwaihir, and the Spider Queen are probably the best examples of this) and while you might be fighting the model you want to fight this round, you might not be rolling enough dice to clear that model this round. If you're Gwaihir and someone like Shagrat charged into you, called a Heroic Strike, and then only got up to F7, if you win the fight, you could Rend him with 2 dice on 3s . . . or you could Barge him, charge him, and then bowl him over with 3 Attacks/6 wounding dice looking for 4s or 5s (depending on whether your army bonus is intact) . . . or you could just charge into some grunts instead (your choice).

Generic BPA: Hurl

The third and final BPA is Hurl. This BPA used to allow you to chuck someone in any direction you wanted, but in the (vastly improved) current version of the rules, the model you want to Hurl must be thrown directly away from where it was. This requires either a lot of finesse when charging enemy models OR carelessness (or necessity) in how your opponent charged in with his own models.

A Hurl works like this: you draw a line from the center of the monster's base through the center of the model you're throwing and roll a D6: the target model is thrown that many inches PLUS 1 additional inch for every pip of Strength the monster has over his target. You can only do this if the target model has a lower Strength stat than the monster, so you know you'll at least throw someone 2" away from you (though in reality, the monster usually has 2-4 pips of Strength more, making the expected minimum distance thrown to be somewhere between 3-5"). You then place the model that far away from where it started, though the target model's travel will be cut short if its path brings it into contact with a wall/tree/similar terrain piece OR a model that is S6 or higher.

Once the model has reached its end point, he is placed Prone (displacing any models that would be there) and you see how many other models he passed through: all of those models are placed prone, as are any models Engaged in the same fight as any models that were on the path (and are S5 or below). Yeah, it's possible for a LOT of people to be knocked Prone by a Hurl . . .

All of the models knocked Prone by the thrown model suffer a S3 hit (with cavalry models taking hits on both the mount and the rider). The thrown model suffers one S3 hit for every model it passed through, as well as a S6 hit if it collided with something that stopped it early (a tree/wall/similar terrain feature/S6+ model). The thing that stopped the target's movement also suffers a S6 hit, which could be important. Like Barge, this BPA closes off the attack, so anyone who was engaged in a Multiple Combat will need to act before the Hurl is made (and naturally, it also means you can't have a monster Hurl and a monster Barge in the same fight).

So what does all this mean? First and foremost, Hurls are most effective when your opponent has a bunch of models packed in together in a line. Most of the time, you'll get this opportunity if you were able to charge the flank of an enemy battle line, but it can also happen if your own lines are shaped in a curve (like the inverted crescent formation, found here). 

Hurls are also great when you can throw an enemy model into someone who's engaged with a friendly model who is S6+, since all of their foes will be knocked Prone but the friendly model will still be standing (doubling its wounding dice if it wins and taking no damage it if loses). Centaur loves to field multiple Cave Trolls with Buhrdur and he's gotten very, VERY good at this tactic.

Third, Hurls are a cheeky way to deprive the enemy of mounts. Since all mounted models are knocked Prone (and therefore unhorsed), heroes who were relying on their mount to increase their speed and damage output will suddenly find themselves Prone and slower when they finally stand up (if they stand up, that is . . .). Like Sorcerous Blast, this is a way of dealing with a mount in a way that your opponent has no control over - and if he positioned himself for the Hurl, then it's his fault AND he has no solution for it. Double bummer that . . .

But Hurls are also one of the least effective ways of dealing damage with monsters: sure, in your mind's eye you might see some really epic Hurls (if the Balrog at S9 hurls a S3 Elf diagonally from the flank of a battle line, that Elf will fly 7-9" through 16-20 comrades and who-cares-how-many-Goblins), but S3 hits don't reliably translate into kills. They just don't (unless your opponent has REALLY low defense). Against a D6 battle line, the 16-20 prone models may result in 2-4 models killed? Maybe? That's . . . about as many as you'd get if you just killed two people that you charged. And that's the most optimal situation for a Hurl against high-Defense foes. Yes, you've got Prone models now (and any spearmen you have supporting models who were engaged with any of these poor blighters will still be able to double Strikes against them), but the actual damage you dealt isn't going to be that spectacular most of the time.

Hurls are best used for changing the situation you're in on a section of the board: they are intended to slow down enemy troops by putting them on their backs, deny the enemy the use of mounts on important heroes for the rest of the game (or deprive the enemy of a banner for the current turn), or for softening up a battle line by placing them in a bad position (either to force out Might for a Heroic Move or to allow you to swarm them on the following turn and kill them en masse). All worthy goals - but an experienced opponent will do his best not to give you a good hurl line if he's able to charge you first (though I will admit, this becomes very difficult the more monsters there are on the board).

Conclusion

Well, that was a lot about monsters! Hopefully this fleshed out their rules, made some things clearer, and gave you some ideas for how to use them. This discussion applies to MOST monsters, though, and in our next post, we'll be looking at a unique subset of monsters: war beasts. You can't really talk about them in the same sentence because a) war beasts can't use BPAs, and b) war beasts have a TON of other rules/constraints that make "normal monsters" look like perfectly ordinary and normal units by comparison. If you've ever been scared off by the rules upon rules for Mumaks or Great Beasts of Gorgoroth in the main rulebook or the Armies of the Lord of the Rings, then next week's post is for you! Until then, happy hobbying!

22 comments:

  1. I believe Smaug's base is 9.2 inches (23.1 cm) long and 5.4 inches (13.3 cm) wide.

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  2. from GW store website (https://www.games-workshop.com/en-EU/Smaug?_requestid=14027292): "[Smaug model] comes with a 231x133mm oval base". You're welcome :)

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  3. Can any Strikes be made if a Monster wants to use Barge? It affects Backing Away which happens before Strikes. How would this play out?

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    1. In a multiple combat, you'd want to decide how important barging is - if you need the movement now, barge first and skip the wounding. If you're okay with the barge not happening (or getting a wound or two on a hero who's called a Heroic Defense), roll for the models that can strike and then Barge.

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    2. Using the Barge BPA a good Monster hero combo might be using heroic combat and Barge in the same turn, could move a grand total of 20” in one turn! (brilliant for objective taking!). I came up with it while reading this but would it work?

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    3. It is an excellent combo, which is why I'm pretty sure the rules say that a monster can't use Barge and take part in a Heroic Combat in the same turn. :-) But your thinking is spot-on.

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    4. It does say that - you can't benefit from both in the same turn (even if you're not calling both). You can get almost 20" of movement with a flyer with Barge - and 24" of movement with a Combat - but infantry monsters are a bit more limited. Unfortunately.

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  4. Where does it say Monsters can't climb?

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    1. This is actually a change from a previous edition that I didn't notice happened. Thanks for catching that!

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  5. Okay, this is going to sound stupid but… does rend insta-kill or is it only one wound? I looked in the rule book and FAQ but couldn’t find anything.

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    1. So for Rend, you roll the number of dice in your attack stat, you measure your Strength against the target's Strength (instead of Defense), and then any dice that score wounds do that number of wounds. The tricky part is that these don't count as "strikes," so you don't get any modifiers that only affect strikes. The big one is that you don't double your dice if the model you're fighting is prone (which doesn't make a whole lot of sense, but that's how its played). More controversially, how Rend synergizes with things like cavalry bonuses (for fell beasts/eagles) is also a bit grey.

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  6. You didnt mention that not all monsters get monstrous charge.

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    1. True - it's a special rule that happens to be on some monsters (and as was covered recently in an Unexpected Podcast episode, often separates monsters with good stats but no ability to double their wounding dice from monsters with worse srats that kill their targets quickly).

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  7. Am seeing a range of opinions of monstrous charge plus rend. Seems like you’re saying you’d be able to roll the bonus die for the duel roll but not roll a bonus die for the rend roll? Presumably that’s because BPA’s aren’t subject to strike modifiers. Does that mean that you’re categorising the extra attack die as a result of a charge as a strike modifier?

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    1. That's correct - Rend uses your Attack stat and Monstrous Charge gives you an additional die without improving your actual Attack stat. In general, when you charge with Monstrous Charge, you're going to knock whatever you're fighting over - doubling your dice is going to do more expected damage than Rend will (with or without the bonus attack die).

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    2. So because dealing strikes to trapped models is better than any circumstance that you might choose to Rend; a question regarding whether or not you’re permitted an extra die for your Rend roll is irrelevant.

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    3. This is generally true - most Monstrous Charge models begin at S6 and have 3A when charging (some can have more), so unless you're fighting someone with D9-10, you'll be wounding on 4s or 5s (and very occasionally 3s). If you have 6 dice looking for 4s or 5s, you're expecting to do 2-3 wounds. If you Rend with 2-3 Attacks (depends on the model) and you're Rending on 3s, you should do 1-2 wounds. If you're facing a D9-10 foe, the Rend might do the same damage, but you're still rolling more dice when striking normally, so there's value in just striking normally.

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  8. I have a real soft spot for math-hammering. Based on my enthusiastic-yet-probably-wrong calculations we’d agree on the general case but differ on the extremes. Looks to me like if you have a choice between rending on 3’s with 3 dice vs trapped striking on 6s with 8 dice (A of 3 plus 1 charge bonus die that you’re disallowing for Rending); both are likely to score at least one hit but Rending has significantly better odds at 96%

    Hence I’d like to get back to the original question: why categorise the attack bonus as the result of a charge as a strike modifier as opposed to an attacks modifier?

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    1. The rule for Monstrous Charge (p. 110 of the main rulebook) says that the model gain the Extra Attack bonus from the cavalry rules. This can be found on p. 64, which says that the model gains "one additional Attack when making Duel rolls and making Strikes in the following fight."

      If it were just this, that'd be fine - but just before the rules for Rend on p. 79 is a section on BPAs that says "as Brutal Power Attacks do not count as making Strikes, any special rule or Heroic Action that would affect a Monster model's Strikes will not affect a Brutal Power Attack unless otherwise stated."

      I could see the argument for the extra attack proctoring off a Rend, but a) the Extra Attack rule specifically says it only applies to making Strikes, and b) Rend as a BOA is done in place of Strikes. Both rules appear to exclude the other when viewed next to each other . . . at least to me.

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    2. As for the 96% number, the likelihood of getting one wound is going to be higher for three attempts at 3s, but you're over 80% of getting at least one with the Monstrous Charge/trapped scenario. Getting a single wound might be all you need, but against a S4/D9 target (that isn't a Vault Warden Foe Spear), you're looking for more than one wound. The likelihood that you get two wounds on three dice on 3s is pretty good (right around 75%), but the likelihood that you get at least two is quite high for the other option as well (Google's AI puts it around 40%). Getting three wounds against a Durin/Iron Hills Captain in Shieldwall/Thror is ideal, but the likelihood drops precipitously with Rend (just under 30%), while the trapped scenario is still doing worse at around 13%, but thr disparity has dropped quite a bit.

      While I won't critique Rend for not being able to get to 4-8 wounds, my original claim that most S6 models with Monstrous Charge have 2A instead of three changes this comparison quite a lot - 2A looking for two 3s is right around 50%, while the trapped variant is still lower (around 25%), but it again has the option to get more total wounds. I could be argued into Rending. :-)

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    3. Thanks! That was insightful :)

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