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Thursday, January 20, 2022

Is There Such A Thing As A Bad Legendary Legion?

Good morning gamers,

I will begin by acknowledging the click-bait title - I write articles on the internet, I'm allowed. :-)

Legendary Legions have been reviewed recently by Ali King on the GBHL and he categorized them out in broad terms as "the Good, the Bad, and the Ugly." As a quick summary (though you should read the article - its focus is actually on the impact and value of theme in Matched Play and much larger than just the Good/Bad/Ugly classification of Legions), there are Legions that give you an incentive to play a themed list that isn't oppressive ("good" Legions), Legions that don't give you much of a reason to take them over their normal alliances ("bad" Legions), and Legions that add oppressive rules that can create a negative game experience ("ugly" Legions).

I think Ali wrote a REALLY good article and did a great job of categorizing the Legions, but while much time was dedicated to the Legions that are "ugly" (among the other topics), I kept coming back to the thought that some Legions are bad. Ali makes the case (and on some level I think he's right) that there are Legions that just aren't as good as their "normal" army lists - but I've spent a lot of time on this blog writing about what makes certain Legions better than they first appear. So, let's take a look at some Legions that are probably classified as "bad" Legions and see what they have to offer.

Identifying Bad Legions

There are some Legions that are pretty easy to call "good" - they give thematic benefits to an army that make them better than a normal alliance but aren't oppressive in their impact. According to Ali, this list would include:

  • The Breaking of the Fellowship (only 8 models and no armor or horses can be taken, but you get banners, magic resistance, and Elven cloaks/potential Blinding Light to negate archery);
  • The Defenders of Helm's Deep (no Rohan cavalry, but your infantry can fight in ranks and you can get heroes like Aragorn, Legolas, Gimli, and Haldir along with Galadhrim Warriors to augment a small selection of Rohan heroes);
  • The Army of Dunland (no Uruks, Saruman, or Warg Riders, but added rules that increase the damage of the Dunland models in the list and an augment to their banners to help them win fights - critical since you lost most of your supporting model options); and
  • Cirith Ungol (VERY reduced model selection, but added boosts to both the named heroes and the warriors in the list to make them more dangerous).

I do think that the Defenders of Helm's Deep could give you a negative play experience with their archery at nearly any points level, but it won't be as bad as some other Legions. The "ugly" lists get great buffs too, but their boosts tend to focus on over-emphasizing one part of the game and can lead to a negative play experience for a player that isn't ready to deal with it. This, according to Ali, includes the following Legions:

  • The Riders of Theoden (small reduction of heroes and warriors, free heroic actions for a round to get more out of your heroes - and certainly more egregious back when Gamling was able to restore Might to all friendly Rohan heroes near him every turn);
  • The Rangers of Ithilien (reduction in hero and warrior options, but allowing up to 45 Rangers of Gondor to be fielded without counting towards your bow limit - though there is the potential for this list to leave this category now that Frodo, Sam, and Smeagol are required);
  • The Assault Upon Helm's Deep (greatly reduced selection of heroes and moderately reduced selection of warriors, but increased potency for some of the most dangerous siege weapons in the game and increased warband limits to field lots of F4/S4 Uruk-Hai);
  • The Black Riders (two profiles that all have 1 Attack and horses to boost that to 2 Attacks on the charge, but free channelled Transfix rules, increased Harbinger penalties when more Riders are present, and no need to spend Will for fighting); and
  • The Vanquishers of the Necromancer (five profiles that give auric boosts to each other and gain rules to make the wizards more powerful in combat and all heroes can cast magic even if they're engaged).

There are other Legions that weren't discussed that probably fit into both of these categories - "good" Legions would probably also include the Defenders of the Shire LL (giving your Shire army a Goblin-Mercenary-like deployment squad and free traps), Helm's Guard (really reduced profile selection, but MEGA boost to Helm and the warriors near him), Theodred's Guard (reduced hero selection, but auto-passing Courage tests on everyone and the ability to spear-support with Helmingas), the Grand Army of the South (some elite warrior/hero profiles lost but greater boosts for your Suladan/The Mumak War Leader), the Pits of Dol Guldur (reduced profile selection for the Dark Powers of Dol Guldur, but adding Azog and some great rules that make him much more dangerous), and Ugluk's Scouts (greatly reduced profile list, but great rules for getting Uruks and Orcs to fight together).

"Ugly" Legions probably also include the Rangers of Mirkwood (also heavily invested in shooting with everyone able to be "invisible" behind terrain, though without spears and more expensive warriors and heroes) and the Rise of the Necromancer (no warrior options and no generic captain profiles, but all models either have lots of Will that can be used as Fate OR don't stay dead after you kill them - oh, and there are lots of boosts to the Necromancer). Both of these Legions are new and have been overshadowed by discussions on the other two Legions in their book, but they still emphasize things that other oppressive Legions do.

On the cusp of either the "good" and "ugly" are some Legions that probably could be viewed as oppressive, but aren't as egregious about it as others. These Legions include the Return of the King (a few extra heroes to ally into the Dead of Dunharrow but a free 6" Spirit banner and Anduril - everyone is hard to kill, though, and if you can't charge anyone/get your big hero insta-killed by the Aragorn-King-of-the-Dead combo, you feel wretched) and the Depths of Moria (really reduced selection of heroes and monsters, but greater emphasis on the Balrog and the basic Goblin troops/generic heroes - but let's face it, who wants to HAVE to deal 5+ wounds to a Balrog in any game?).

If you agree that the Legions listed above fall into one of these two categories (good or ugly - and maybe Legions like the Riders of Theoden and the Rangers of Ithilien have moved from one category to another), then the other Legions should at least be considered for the "bad" category - let's see what they are and why that is (and before anyone jumps on me in the comments and says, "you think my favorite Legion is bad?!?!?!", just wait a little longer).

Bad Legion #1: The Men of the West

Photo Credit: Warhammer Community

I don't know that limiting Rohan warriors to Rohan hero warbands and Gondor warriors to Gondor hero warbands was the right call - it means that five really great heroes are left with empty warbands - but the Legion gets critiqued in other ways too. No cavalry, vastly reduced hero and warrior options for both Minas Tirith and Rohan, and both Minas Tirith and Rohan being historical allies normally, you could probably build a much better army just by allying Minas Tirith and Rohan together. It's only if you bring a Fellowship hero (Legolas or Gimli) or the Rivendell heroes (the Twins) that you'd be losing your army bonuses (and if you don't have Rohan cavalry, who cares about their army bonus - and the Minas Tirith army bonus of +1 Courage you can live without too). Notice I have said nothing about the Fiefdoms component of the list . . .

I have several changes that I would love to make to this Legion, but you get surprising cost efficiency with your Warriors of Minas Tirith and Warriors of Rohan by giving them bodyguard in this Legion (effectively). Compared to Guards of the Fountain Court and Royal Guards, you can pay 2-3pts less for -1 FV (and -1D for the Warriors of Rohan) - and the FV drop can be regained for one turn if they're within 12" of Elessar (which everyone should be for one round).

What I also love about this Legion is that running Aragorn and Gandalf together is usually quite difficult in Minas Tirith (the Durin Show has an episode talking about this if you want to learn more) and this Legion . . . actually gives you a way to do that (because you have to take them without mounts and their more expensive troop types). Add Eomer with his shield and 250pts of warriors at 800pts and you have a force to be reckoned with (with up to 35 models in your army)! At lower points levels, you might not be able to fit in Gandalf, but you can fit in Legolas at 700pts with the exact same list (Elessar and Eomer with more or less full warbands). Eomer on foot isn't a great secondary hero, but he's better than a lot of other lists will have and if he and Elessar stay close together, they can punch through a lot.

Bad Legion #2: The Army of Gothmog

Photo Credit: Gamers Decide

When I did my review of these guys in our Stuff of Legends series, I wasn't very flattering - and I do think this army is in the running for what qualifies as a "bad" Legion. You don't get access to Ringwraiths, war beasts, and most cavalry options that Mordor usually does and all you get in return are "most of the Orc models", Trolls, and siege weapons. With rules that boost Gothmog's radiuses for his special rules but without changing the keywords of his rules to be more general, this Legion could be devastating or fall flat depending on what you're fighting.

But since Mordor has more hero and warrior options than any other list in the book by far, streamlining their army to "siege weapons, Trolls, and Orcs" means that those Mordor War Catapults can actually be used regularly in game play without being edged out by other troop or hero options. Anytime you use siege weapons, you gotta make up the points somewhere, so going down to cheap support heroes in the form of Guritz, Zagdush, and Goroth (who isn't exactly "cheap") is really good. While I think Gothmog is better as not-your-army-leader, he's decent for being an evil hero (and about as expensive as a siege engine). Is this a bad legion? Maybe - but if you run it with two catapults, it could also rock your opponent's list pretty well (bah-dum-ching).

Bad Legion #3: The Grey Company

Photo Credit: Warhammer Community

So . . . we got Rangers, right? And we got Legolas, Gimli, and the Twins, right? And that's basically it, right? Pretty much. Not much gained except keeping the Ranger army bonus (and the ability to bring the Twins with the Rangers without also bringing Elrond or Glorfindel). With your cheapest "spam heroes" (Dunedain) left out of the list and no mounts, this army doesn't look good.

But you also get Anduril for free. Aragorn makes all-infantry armies quite maneuverable and having played against this army at 550pts at a recent tournament, the power that the heroes give you (Aragorn, Halbarad, and either the Twins or Legolas and Gimli) can be REALLY nasty. Yes, you'll struggle with numbers, but with lots of shooting and Heroic Combats, don't underestimate these guys - they can go from losing to winning objective scenarios very quickly (Rythbyrt didn't lose a single Domination game in practice with his 550pt list and didn't lose his Domination game at the tournament either - it can be done with 7 models!).

Bad Legion #4: The Paths of the Druadan

Photo Credit: Warhammer Community

Tied for fourth in the highest-points-tax-for-a-Legion contest (300pts required), this Legion sports 16 infantry and 1+ Rohan cavalry, but is probably the easiest Rohan Legion to break because of the large D3 infantry block they have to take. If those infantry get stuck in a bad situation, saving them with your Rohan cavalry could be REALLY difficult and once you break, it's going to be hard to stick around.

You can, however, win Heroic Moves more reliably and you can pick places on the board that would normally be difficult terrain for you to treat as open terrain. Both of these are really nice for a cavalry army, giving you skirmish options and charging options that wouldn't normally be present. However, the presence of lots of F3/D3 models tends to see this army critiqued in the community - unfairly I think.

Bad Legion #5: The Riders of Eomer

Photo Credit: Warhammer Community

Often viewed as the short-handed cousins of the Riders of Theoden, this Legion has one of the most restrictive profile Legions in the game (five options) and lacks the ability for Riders of Rohan to be F4 on the charge (for reasons nobody knows). In trade for a very limited set of heroes (Eomer, Gandalf, Erkenbrand, Captains) and one warrior choice (Riders of Rohan who can be upgraded to Redshields - but not for free), you get one turn of glory (Shade-like -1 penalties to all enemy models on the battlefield) IF you have Gandalf in the army. As such, the tax for this Legion is really high (250-260pts) and you've got a serious restriction on your numbers at any points level.

But at the same time, if you have 4-5 heroes in your army and call 4-5 Heroic Combats on the round that the Sun is Rising, you can probably kill 16-20 models in a single round (kind of like the Riders of Theoden can). And while the Riders of Theoden run into the danger of the enemy rolling a 6-high, the Riders of Eomer on the charge against warriors can guarantee that the enemy CAN'T get a 6-high, so beating warriors is really easy. Underestimate this Legion at your peril - I've been playing it a lot recently and it's REALLY scary sometimes.

Bad Legion #6: The Black Gate Opens

Photo Credit: Warhammer Community

One named hero, one pseudo-named-hero in the form of the Uber Troll Chieftain, and a handful of generic heroes isn't a great hero corps. Add to that a very limited selection of warriors - none of which are mounted - and you've got an army that REALLY struggles to shine in light of the normal Mordor army (all Mordor Legions have this problem, by the way). Without the siege weapons and named Orc heroes available to the Army of Gothmog, the only thing that makes this Legion "worth taking" is that you can get +1 To Wound when you outnumber the enemy in a fight (it's a mystery whether spear-armed models supporting in the fight get this bonus - I think they do since it doesn't say that they don't). If you can't outnumber the enemy, you aren't getting much - and without a Shaman, charging certain armies might be REALLY hard.

But at the same time, this Legion has big, scary monster heroes (and is encouraged to take Mordor Troll Chieftains - some of the nastiest monster heroes in the game - since they don't have options for other conventional choices, like Shagrat, Gothmog, or Nazgul of some ilk). They also might not have cavalry, but if you take a Mordor Troll with war drum (usually a hard choice to include in a normal Mordor list) and a hero with March (like the Mouth of Sauron), you can get 12" movement on all your infantry if you need it. The only thing scarier than a Morannon Orc spam rushing 12" at your army is a Morannon Orc spam rushing 12" at your army with 2-3 Trolls in it . . . yeesh, that's nasty.

Bad Legion #7: The Chief's Ruffians

Photo Credit: Warhammer Community

One might argue that Sharkey's Rogues in any form can't be competitive - and maybe that's right. With no big heroes (and lots of . . . well, pretty bad heroes) and really bad warrior choices, this Legion would appear to most viewers as dead on arrival. My son likes to say, "But Ruffians are the worst unit in the game - how can they be good?"

But Ruffians do two things well in this Legion: first and foremost, they are 6pt archers - yes, they have a 5+ shoot value, but quantity has a quality all its own. If your opponent invested in Blinding Light to protect him from Elves or Rangers, he'll find that 30 Ruffians are happy to move half-speed and hit on a 6 . . . like they always do.

Ruffians also get +1 To Hit with their whips in this list - which is DIFFERENT from hitting on a 4+ (though effectively it is). Against someone protected by Blinding Light, the Chief's Ruffians will actually hit with their Whirl-enabling throwing weapons on a 5+ (because 5s become 6s). Pretty incredible - and if you outnumber the enemy 3:1, you don't need too many whips to hit and wound in order to make the odds swing in your favor. Since a few heroes have whips (Sid and Bill), you may have a Might point to boost a wounding roll too.

Bad Legion #8: Lurtz's Scouts

Photo Credit: Warhammer Community

Don't get me started with these guys - no Shaman means that whole thing Saruman says about, "You do not know pain, you do not know fear" is completely untrue of this Legion. This Legion has to charge (no spears) and has average Courage (even on their heroes), they have no saves and are D4-5 (Lurtz gets up to D6), and while everyone is fast (free Marauder upgrade + Heroic March + Drummer = up to 14" moves each turn), that doesn't always help you (and sometimes it means you run to your death FASTER than you would normally).

But Lurtz's Scouts does have something that other Isengard lists don't have: a streamlined set of models so that you can focus on maximizing cheap, good-stat Captains, 9-point bowmen that can be fielded en masse, and multiple banners. Why? Because you're not spending points on things like cavalry, heavy armor, or crossbows. Without heroes like Saruman, as well, you can turn those points savings into something that Isengard armies can struggle to do: bulking out your numbers.

Bad Legion #9: The Wolves of Isengard

Photo Credit: CouncilofElrond.com

No comments here - these guys are bad. PSYCHE - that doesn't sound like me. :)

This Legion is often hailed as one of the best armies at the three maelstrom scenarios in the Matched Play Guide since they are a) able to get cavalry charges off on the first turn of the game, b) can choose to deploy second so that they know where the enemy is, c) rush a handful of models (maybe some Wild Wargs) onto the board before anyone deploys so they can get objective contesting early, and d) basically get to deploy wherever they want. Yes, it can be powerful.

But after that first glorious turn (and even during it), you're still using a F3 warrior army with F4 heroes - and while Sharku gets free Heroic Combats, being stuck at F4 is a huge limitation against elite armies (even if you're swarming them). With no answers to big heroes or elite troops (and no rules to protect their mounts from being shot out from under them), you're counting on having cheap heroes and cheap cavalry/fast infantry to have a numbers advantage against your opponent. Unless Gothmog is in your army (a Mordor Warg Rider build, not an Isengard one), most competitive player would submit that Warg Riders are best in small pockets, not en masse.

But it is possible with fast horde armies to race to objectives and break/quarter yourself to make the game end. This army quarters itself quite well, so there's that. :-)

Are These Legions Bad?

All of these Legions run into one of two problems related to the points levels you're playing at: some of these Legions (like the Paths of the Druadan and Riders of Eomer) require high points investments to get access to their rules, so playing them at lower points levels will make the list feel like it's lacking something compared to other Legions (most notably the Riders of Theoden for these two Legions). Similarly, other Legions start losing options as the points level gets higher and would prefer to play at lower points levels (like the Wolves of Isengard or Lurtz's Scouts). If the points level gets really high, some armies might appear to "become viable" (like the Army of Gothmog or the Black Gate Opens), but can play at lower points levels by going with fewer models and making all of their units hard to deal with (like a Mordor Troll spam for the Black Gate or a Morannon Orc spam for the Army of Gothmog).

But this gets to the first thought I have on Legions being bad: 

All armies can be "good" or "bad" (and NOT ugly) based on the points level.

This is true of non-Legendary Legions too - playing with Sauron around 600pts is doable, but can be quite difficult to play as the points level gets lower. Bump that up to 800pts and suddenly, Barad-Dur can be "good". Everything in the game has a "good" points level that it wants to operate at (sometimes with a different array of heroes based on the points level) and if you're not playing at that level, it might be considered "bad."

Are the Rangers of Ithilien (considered by many pre-nerf to be an "ugly" Legion) "ugly" at 1000pts? Maybe - but many competitive players will look to other options because the Rangers have run out of tricks. Similarly, the Black Riders LL isn't very dangerous below 500pts because you're looking at having 5 or fewer Riders who all have minimal stats. Tough to fight sometimes? Possibly. Negative play experience? Possible as well. Likely to be "that bad"? No.

But there's another thing to consider:

Any Legion can be "competitive" if a player devotes himself to learning how it works.

What most of the "good" Legions above have in common is that you can make a "competitive" list with very little thought devoted to their list building. Building a competitive list from the Defenders of Helm's Deep or the Return of the King isn't difficult - the armies don't have bad units and give you some incredible buffs. Please note that I'm not saying that there isn't any list building thought that goes into the list - there is, I know - but you don't HAVE to be a master list crafter or strategist to bring them to the table and "make them work."

By contrast, you can take a Legion like the Grey Company and the Riders of Eomer to a tournament and win games if you focus on what that lists does - and NOT focus on what it's missing. Few armies will be able to skirmish like the Riders of Eomer can (with Blinding Light/Fortify Spirit to protect heroes and Sorcerous Blast/Banishment to supplement the bows at whittling down the enemy numbers) - and if your opponent is prepared to fight the Rangers of Ithilien and runs into a cavalry army that is hard to catch and still shoots a lot, you could have a distinct advantage.

Playing with Legions that nobody likes also has the advantage of surprise - if you've played a lot with a Legion and learn how it works, your opponent may make assumptions about how it plays, underestimate you, prepare for their assumptions about how the list will play, and then be out of position when you pull off your stunt! It can be amazing to surprise your opponent - and even if you lose the game, you can usually exit a game feeling proud of yourself because you caught your opponent off guard and scared him for a time. Sure, it feels good to win, but only half of the people playing win (usually), so create a secondary objective by taking one of these "bad" Legions and count how many times you improve the other player's view of the Legion instead.

Conclusion

Do some Legions need fixing? I think so. Will "bad" Legions be fixed to make them more viable? I doubt it. Why? Because apparently they are designed for theme only and not everything "has to be competitive." This may be the wrong idea, but I hesitate to say that any Legion is "bad" because I think all of them have merits. Some of them are easier to use competitively than others, but if you're willing to forget what you know before you start list building and try ridiculous combos that no one else could make work, you might be surprised by what you come up with (and your opponent might too).

On the whole, I agree with Ali - there are "bad" Legions - but having bad lists is nothing new and whether a Legion is "good" or "bad" will be determined by their points level and the skill level of the player using them. If you have thoughts on whether or not the Legions I identified as "bad" are actually "good" or "ugly" - or if you think that some Legions will always be bad - let us know in the comments below. Until next time, happy hobbying!

21 comments:

  1. Extremely helpful! Great post, thanks!

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  2. Another great write Up! :)
    I like in general how you seem to be able to Look through common conventions or beliefs in the system and proof that with enough thought and planning, MESBG allows everything to Work under conditions :D
    Just sad you did not write more about "Rise of the Necromancer" :/ i collected this Legion and am eager to play it. But you find very little about the Necromancer and the DG Nazgul on how to play, tactics and in general.
    I understand how they can be used against Banners, Heroes etc but not how to Stop the outnumbering amount of Warriors you will have to face. Any ideas from you on that?

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    1. I haven't gone much into it because I haven't fought it yet and am in the process of collecting them, so I don't have any experience using them either. That said, I've been playing against Rythbyrt's various iterations of Castellans + a few Dol Guldur Nazgul for the last few months and can make the following recommendations:

      1) Castellans are good - if you think of them as warriors, not heroes. At F5/S5/2A, they are incredibly good on offense and only lack behind other heroes because "they don't have any Might." But, with 12 Will that can be used as Fate (and spending 1/turn for fighting thanks to the Will of Evil), they can fight reliably for 6-8 rounds, which is usually enough to kill lots of troops (and force heroes to burn through Might).

      2) To make Castellans effective, I think you need 6+ of them - they can wall off a lot of space, they don't die easily, and they tear through anything that they beat in combat. With Morgul Blades for 5pts/model, you can make a few of them (not sure that you need them on all of them) a serious threat to heroes with 0-1 Fate.

      3) Nazgul are also good at chewing through troops, specifically the Witch-King (3 Might means he can die a lot but come back forever), the Slayers of Men (F5/S4/2A with +1 To Wound and no penalties to winning the fight), and Khamul (who gets critiqued by everyone, but that +1 Attack means he's more likely to get a 6-high that becomes a 5-high, but can become a 6-high again if he spends Might). Against warriors, you don't need to get a 6 every time and that extra die can help you get there. Having played with the Uber-Uruk-Hai-Captain from the Assault Upon Helm's Deep LL with a two-handed axe and two-handing a lot, I can say that you can do plenty of damage and kill lots of things with 3A and a 2h weapon that you wield with a penalty.

      4) Never underestimate the killing power of a Chill Soul each turn from the Necromancer. Since the Legion allows him to Chill Soul on one warrior and Transfix/Curse/Compel/Sap Will an enemy hero, you don't feel like you're wasting his actions by sniping a guy here or there. With 25 Will and hopefully a wall of guys to shield you from everyone else coming at you, you can probably cast for 10 rounds (most games will be about that long, if not shorter) and still have 5 Will for staying live/fighting.

      You can, theoretically, field the following army at 700pts to fight off warrior spams pretty well - but again, I haven't tested it out (though I want to):

      The Necromancer
      2 Nazgul of Dol Guldur (The Witch-King, Khamul the Easterling)
      3 Castellans
      4 Castellans with Morgul Blades

      You could also run 5 Castellans with Morgul Blades and pick up another Nazgul (could run Khamul and 2 Slayers if you wanted to focus on the +1 To Wounds), but not sure that it's needed. At 800pts, I'm toying with this list:

      The Necromancer
      4 Nazgul of Dol Guldur (The Witch-King, Khamul, 2 Slayers of Men)
      4 Castellans of Dol Guldur
      2 Castellans of Dol Guldur with Morgul Blades

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    2. Thx for the detailed answer :)
      Interesting take because so far i mostly Heard that people fit in as many Nazgul as people and only fill up with Castellans.

      Khamul is OK but i think Abyssal Knights and Lingering Shadow are more interesting^^

      I am playing the LL on SA and will probably write a battle Report so i will let you know how it went ;)

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    3. Would love to hear how it goes - I agree that the Abyssal Knights and Lingering Shadow have more mobility for tactical play, but if you're worried about being overrun, you have options.

      Most players in the community come down hard on Castellans because they don't have Might - but having fought them with a variety of lists in the past year (Lothlorien, Khazad-Dum, Riders of Eomer, Vanquishers of the Necromancer), I can tell you that they kill troops well and blunt heroes (something that the Nazgul just don't do). And since you can almost get 2 Castellans for every 1 Nazgul you take, they can pad your numbers too.

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    4. https://castellan-of-the-ring.blogspot.com/2022/01/battle-report-2212022-rise-of.html?m=1

      ;)

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    5. Great read and a vey interesting Legion. :-)

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  3. Gonna soft disagree on Grey Company being a bad legion; you get all of the things you like from Rangers, lose some stuff (horses on Aragorn, Halbarad, the Twins, Legolas, and Rangers of the North), but what you gain is really good (most notably a LOT of additional Heroic Strike options on really good heroes), a free Anduril - what you gain is actually far better than what you lose. There's still a reason to play the normal list (Arathorn for low points play, horses on heroes, etc.), but if you want to play the legion it will play just as well. But on the whole I agree with your assessment all around, :)

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    1. Well, they were placed there by Ali in his article - I assume because most competitive players don't think they get enough numbers and lose their horses (making control scenarios hard). However, we have data to show that they can do just fine if the points level is right. :-)

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    2. Any tips how to play Grey Company? I like the idea and love low model count, but as newbie, Im lost how few rangers and 5 killaheroes can mitigate army of 40 wargs with spiderqueen.

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    3. The Points Level plays a lot into it - and Rythbyrt is the expert, not me - but the power of that list comes from Heroic Combats. Wargs are wounded on 5s with bows, but only 4s in melee with 2 dice and a higher FV. If you start with Aragorn with bow and Armor (and Anduril for free - 170pts), plus Halbarad with the banner (115pts), you have two reliable warrior slayers and a 6" Fearless + banner for under 300pts. You could then spam Rangers of the North (10 in a 600pt game so you can call 12 Heroic Combats in a single round) ir run better heroes (the Twins are a great bargain at lower points levels, Legolas is fun too).

      The key are Combats - Wargs aren't as good as you in combat and have large bases, which makes it hard to maneuver if your units stand together. If each Ranger kills one Warg and then charges/kills another, you can kill 20 models in one turn. If Aragorn kills 4 (2 in each fight) and Halbarad kills 2, you can break a 50 model army in one round without any previous shooting damage factored in.

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    4. Of course, 40 Wargs and a Spider Queen only cost 450pts, so you will be at 5 Rangers + Aragorn and Halbarad. You can still break the army though after one round if you get a few shots in before.

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    5. Like Tiberius said, the points level has a lot to do with it. Assuming you're playing at 450, you could either do Aragorn (no upgrades), Halbarad with Standard, and six Rangers of the North for 450 flat (since you can't take horses in this legion, there's not really much sense in dropping a Ranger for a bow or armor on Aragorn).

      That said, I'm assuming a Dark Denizens army with the Spider Queen probably has at least a couple of bat swarms and some spiders, so 550-600 seems like a more reasonable points level. My 550 force that I took to THRO consisted of Aragorn with bow and armor, Halbarad with standard, the twins with armor and bows, and three rangers of the North (for a whopping 7 models). But if you wanted more numbers _and_ knew for sure what you were playing against, you could potentially swap the twins for six Rangers and bump your model count to 11 (not sure that's worth it, but you could).

      At either points level, 7-11 models is going to be hard-pressed to deal with 40+ fast-moving, high-strength models if they hit you all at once. I would begin by looking for some defensive terrain (like woods), especially if the enemy is heavy on wargs, and has few to no spiders. A 5-inch move warg still moves pretty fast, but it's slower than your Woodland Creature heroes on foot (which, in the Grey Company, is all of them). One disadvantage about the Denizens is that they're all on 40mm bases (or larger, in the Spider Queen's case), so I would try to spread out your guys somewhat. If you leave about 35mm of space between them, the enemy can't get past them (except for Bats, of course), and if you keep some heroes in reserve behind them (like Aragorn and the twins), they can selectively charge through the gaps to hit priority targets and trigger heroic combats. If the terrain allows you to form a defensive convex formation, you can also reduce the number of enemy models that can charge you (because their bases will get in each other's way). There are also no spears in the Denizens army, and any time you can get your F4, 2 Attack rangers into a one-on-one against a F3 warg (or even a F2 spider), you'll have the advantage, especially with your Rangers' might points and a banner reroll.

      Once you get set-up defensively, I would prioritize shooting at the Spider Queen with your bows as often as you can; call a free Heroic Accuracy with Aragorn for extra chances to reroll in-the-ways, and don't be afraid to spend might to wound (since she has no fate, she can only take three wounds total, and once she goes down, the army is substantially easier to deal with). I would _not_ bother shooting at the bats, given their 4 wounds and how fast they fly. You'll have chances to wound them in combat later (on 3s--needless to say, any chance you get to strike at a Bat in combat, take it).

      Once you get the Spider Queen down (and you should be able to, either with shooting or in combat, especially if you have the twins with Aragorn), you should have an advantage against the rest of the army as long as there are no bats in the combat. With your banner, you have a pretty good chance (3 attacks base, plus any Might you have left over for boosting 5s to 6s) of besting the F2 Mirkwood Spiders and F3 wargs in combat, and since they're D3 or D4, you have a pretty good chance of getting wounds in, too. If the enemy has any F4 giant spiders, prioritize sending Aragorn, Halbarad, and the twins (if you have them) into those combats. Once the Spider Queen is dead, Aragorn can go to town with heroic combats cutting through troops (and if you have the twins, I would think seriously about sending the two twins to deal with the Spider Queen so Aragorn can get to work on troops earlier). Try to keep Halbarad safe at all costs--his banner bonus is huge (as is the Fearless, at least until you get rid of the spiders).

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    6. From there, it depends on how successful your shooting is and what the objectives of the scenario are. Breaking the enemy is always a good thing (because the Denizens' courage is terrible, even with the Spider Queen), so don't be afraid to spend some Might to do that if needed.

      Toughness is also really important when you're outnumbered, so if you're playing at 550 or higher, I would take the twins over the extra rangers every time. The 2 wounds/2 Fate makes them a lot more resilient, and the F6 with the ability to strike means you have multiple models that aren't Aragorn or Halbarad that you can throw at the Spider Queen (who's a problem). With three attacks (if you dual-wield--four if you shield), a banner reroll, and an elven made weapon, they win a lot of fights. And each of them have 3 Might to fix botches. Six rangers will give you more bow firepower, but are quite a bit squishier in combat (and you're taking an awful risk if you throw them into the Spider Queen).

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    7. Thanks guys for responses, this helps a lot to understand how the army works. Im used to more traditional playstyles with armies like Serpent Horde, because I understand by rule of thumb basic tactics. Grey Company was (and still is :)) sort of conondrum - I like the idea, just was not sure what are tools. Now I have much better picture, thanks :)

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  4. I think that some LL should be able to be taken as allied contingent.
    I know it sounds like an heresy, but well, why would'nt defenders of helm deep and riders of Eomer be able to ally?

    As allied contigent both units would still compel to some restrictions and it would add some flavor to some LL.

    Riders of Eomer / Defenders of helm deep, Grey compagny / Minas Tirith, Wolves of Isengard / Isengard main list...

    Some legion are already versatile and strong on their own but the weakest LL (or those considered "bad") widely lack options. They still coexist in official timeline with other factions and then should be allowed to ally.

    Sry for bad expression

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    1. This is an interesting idea - though I'm not sure at what points level two Legions can actually be fielded. The Defenders of Helm's Deep would still need to bring Theoden (85), the Riders of Eomer would still need to bring Eomer (115-120, depending on your love for throwing spears), and if you want the once-per-game rule for the Riders of Eomer, you also need to bring Gandalf (240). That's 440pts on 3 heroes and the infantry models from the Defenders list won't benefit from the Look to the Sun rule when it's used. I'm not sure that Theoden on foot is better than Erkenbrand mounted, or that Eomer and Gandalf are better than Aragorn, Legolas, and Haldir (or two of those heroes and ~10 extra guys). Maybe there are other pairings that would work better, but the Rohan one doesn't seem like it's worth doing in one army.

      That said, maybe doubles games should allow two players to take "concurrent Legions", instead of both players having to take models from the same Legion.

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  5. I honestly disagree with the Men of the West assessment. I see exactly why everyone thinks they are garbage and i had the same view... until... my best friend dared me to take them to our grand event. the event still has yet to come but over the past several weeks i have messed with building the army in different ways and assessing it against every other army in the game before even taking out the final list i decided on. So far i am completely undefeated with the army. Now by my standards i would call myself a good player as my lowest ever placement (which was in a grand event)_ was 9th and other then that and one 5th every other event has been a podium so i do have some experience under my belt. Now the first thing i looked at when seeing the list is one thing. It isn't a spam list or a shooting list. and definitely not a list to take ANY Rohan models in. yes the throwing weapons can be super nice but the defense five ruins the entire army... you need complete defense 6 and above. At first look at the options obviously Aragorn must be in the list and other then that you have free range... the best options are honestly quite clear. Elladan and Elrohir. These guys are actually not debuffed at all with the lack of horses. in fact i like them without horses since they get their full value. Ultimately the true key to the list is Knights of Dol Amroth. with an impressive line of 3 F6 (f7 for 1 turn) heros all with elven blades all you need is to keep your warriors alive. f3 shielding is practically useless as i have found out with orcs. so the Knights are needed... take minas tirith tin cans behind to bulk out numbers and support for the one turn of glory at f5 and not shield that turn but otherwise these guys shield unless they outnumber the opponent. I have had massive success with this army and i cannot wait to take it out to our grand in august. The list itself consists of this balance.

    Aragorn
    10 knights of dol amroth
    8 minas tirith spear and shield

    Elladan and elrohir with heavy armor

    Beregond
    2 minas tirith with bows
    3 minas tirith spear and shield

    650 points 37 models 10 might (+free)

    the 10 might is stunning at 650 and is super oppressive. with free marches you are a relatively fast army and it is a combat army. get the 3 f6 heroes chewing through troops ASAP and then in your one turn of glory set up a whole bunch of bolging combats at f7 to take nearly anything out. Through my games of domination reconnoitre hold ground and retrieval this list has held true and is quite a competitive list... the thing i learned... is that if you have an aragorn... you have a chance. the fearless is super helpful and so is the fight bonus... timing is everything with that but the infantry heros means that they can be protected much easier and thus be kept alive longer... all of this adds up to equal a lethal force. beregond and his small warband is probably my favorite aspect to the army as in most scenarios he can be dropped off on his own to score several vps protect something or anything of that sort. he truly is such a valuable asset as is everything in the list. Anyways there is my own "In Defense of the Men of the West".

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    1. I am its only advocate here - and I have been tinkering with Twin builds too. The Dol Amroth knights seem too expensive for me, but I have lists that tinker with them too for longer term staying power and once per game F5.

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    2. the knights are most definitely overcosted. look at their points and they are worth maybe 10 points on a generous day when courage is valued at a point by itself (when it really shouldn't be) otherwise 9 points. But the list really needs the f4 shielding to stay alive so i have found it is the only way the army continuously functions consistently for winning games. my most recent game with it i was playing against a barrowwight he witch king and buhrdur with a bunch of orcs and spectres and just the f4 in that game allowed me to have complete control and I 12-0d it witht he army in hold ground when the Angmar army was deployed together and mine was not. its just that power that comes with shielding and letting those 3 f6 heroes just kill things. the one turn f5 came in super clutch as the 1 turn fight value is declared after heorics so the witch king went into two kights and i pulled in two spear supports and he thought he was fine because he was higher fight so didnt call a strike in the heroic phase then when fight came i declared for frodo took off a wound and his horse in one turn all thanks to that f5. i personally have found it to be that game changer in the list and still find it as the most competitive way to run it.

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    3. I will have to give it a try - spoiler for future posts coming out this year, but I'm getting into the Fiefdoms, so some Knights of Dol Amroth are already on their way!

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