Hey Reader!
Tiberius made a post recently talking about things that bother him in Star Wars Legion that underline things he loves about MESBG, and not to be someone who bad-mouths a game I've invested in and do enjoy playing, I do think that Legion illustrates a new game to the scene that is fun to play, but does have some aspects of it that need a rework in the next edition (whenever that comes).
As someone who plays Middle Earth, Bolt Action, Imperial Assault, and Legion (and have played Warhammer Fantasy 8th Edition, Warhammer 40k, Infinity, and Blood Bowl in the past), this post is mostly just praising 5 things I love about MESBG that are thrown into stark relief by Legion. If you read my post talking about Bolt Action, this will feel very similar.
(Also I've done a prime on my models and a few other colors, but none of them are done yet; probably won't finish my Legion army until after I finish repainting a bunch of my models for the upcoming TMAT tournament this June, so don't crucify me below for having poorly painted models! I agree with you! :P )
I. Might Points Are AWESOME!
Turrets, like siege weapons, are awesome. It would be even more awesome with Might... |
In fact, extend that: heroic stats in general (not to mention heroic actions) are awesome! If units in Legion had access to heroic stats that allowed them to better fend off attacks, heroes would feel more heroic (because as it stands, rolling more dice is always a good answer in this game, and some units can do it and some cannot), and you feel like you have more control over your force, and by extension the game.
The biggest issue from this perspective in Legion is that it's actually too easy: activate a unit (which I'm not a big fan of how they do unit activations, but more on that a bit later), take its turn, switch to the other player. This means, though, that there's no force concentration where you can move a large number of guys (Heroic Move), or push more quickly to an objective (Heroic March), or slice through a bad guy droid and move on to another target (Heroic Combat) because...I guess that would be too much for people to handle? Even though the Command Cards determining priority is totally easy to understand? Eh, I'll move on.
And it creates a second issue: since both sides "see-saw" in activations until one side runs out (in which case, by the way, they do have a Pass mechanic, but a lot of the time one side will just run out of activations and then the other side gets to finish out with all of their remaining activations), it means that not only can you not get force concentration through strategic planning, thanks to the suppression mechanic (which we will talk about later), there's a heavy incentive to put out a lot of activations just designed to suppress the enemy, which simplifies tactics dramatically. And if you do this with the Confederacy (who can't be suppressed, because they're droids), it's even easier because the opponent can't do it back to you in return.
So if you've ever hated playing against "Gun Line" factions in a game, Legion actively rewards this way of playing due to their activation mechanic: there's no reason not to go for high activation count and then focusing fire on specific units just to panic them off the table.
II. Rolling to Hit Is AWESOME!
Believe it or not, the troopers do better at shooting than the "machine gun guy" because there are more of them... |
Do you know what helps to fix the issue of "dakka shooting" or mass melee attacks? The fact that about half of them (depending on the faction) will miss. In MESBG most models have a 3+ or worse to hit, and then when you factor in the penalty for moving and shooting, In the Way rolls, and line of sight, you won't see rolls to wound for more than half of the shots, more or less (naturally bonkers rolls happen, and that's fine! It feels exciting and heroic! Even if you're on the receiving side!). And then from there the target to wound is roughly a 5-6, so only 33% of all hits will actually wound.
In Legion this is not the case: if you have sufficient range with a red attack dice, you have a 75% or higher chance of dealing a wound with every one of those red dice, because...I guess tanks in Star Wars never miss? They always do some damage?
In Bolt Action (and Tiberius had a bad experience with this), tanks have to roll to hit, and if they hit they have a good chance (typically a 2+ but could be as high as a 5+) of dealing damage to the target. But in Legion, anything that rolls more than one dice - tanks, turrets, walkers, speeders - will basically always do some damage to a target: they never miss. The only question is how brutal the damage is.
And I get it: it's trying to streamline the system, and this is not uncommon in Fantasy Flight Games. The issue is that in every other game of theirs for Star Wars there is actually a miss mechanic: a massed battery of turbolasers, ion cannons, and missile launchers on your capital ship in Armada have a decent chance of missing, especially since a lot of targets can evade and then suffer damage on shields. In Imperial Assault lacking range to the target is an auto-miss, regardless of how much damage you deal. But in Legion, everyone hits all the time, which aggravates the Suppression mechanic that Tiberius mentioned in his post (which deserves more commentary, but I should really do that on a Bolt Action blog and not an MESBG blog).
III. Movement Variance Is AWESOME!
The guys on the ground move at Speed-2 (6"); the snowspeeder moves at Speed-3 (8")... |
In Legion, the difference between a Speed-1, Speed-2, and Speed-3 unit is actually quite small: really only a 1-2" difference between each distance. And since movement involves unit cohesion instead of actual model distance, you can actually catapult a model quite far ahead or behind to get them near an objective in Legion.
In MESBG, on the other hand, cavalry are dramatically faster than human infantry, which are dramatically faster than hobbits (admittedly the difference between dwarves and humans isn't that much, but you rarely see a dramatic difference in their speed in the movies or books, so that's fine). Having a higher movement speed - especially with the existence of Heroic March, as noted in Point 1 above - adds a level of tactical complexity that you don't get in Legion, where everything - from speeders to R2 units - move at around the same speed.
Now I hear the Legion fans saying, "But Centaur: fast vehicles get a compulsory move, so they will commonly move twice in a single turn, which is way faster than other models!" And while yes, they move further, 1) it's may 6-8" further than a model moving 4-6" in the same turn, so it's not a dramatic difference, and 2) were you to compare a cavalryman moving twice in MESBG, or even an infantryman moving twice in MESBG, to what we have in Legion, you'd see the difference: there are no "fast units" by comparison in Legion, because ultimately the ranges of movement are all more or less equal.
And I like fast-moving units - I love being able to race to objectives, push quickly behind enemy lines, slip past defenders that are out of position, reinforce parts of the line that my opponent wouldn't have guessed by eyeballing it that I could reach, etc. So many shenanigans (and useful shenanigans, at that) can be done purely because you get the chance to move very far relatively quickly in this game. And I think that can make some game systems superior.
IV. Courage Is AWESOME!
You know, the Courage mechanic in MESBG is actually low-key brilliant: it works for its intended purpose, with braver models sticking around with room for fluke rolls to storytell for us, while at the same time meeting other needs that don't always come up in the game but add a new side to strategy (like dead spirits wounding against Courage instead of Defense, or in the campaigns we're designing here at TMAT, using the Courage stat to improve knowledge-related rolls to tell you how much a character would know about the scene in front of them).
And other games have a similar mechanic: 40k, Warhammer Fantasy, and presumable The Old World have/had Leadership, Bolt Action has Morale, and so forth. And in all of these games it led to an alternate way to deal with enemy units: if you can reduce their Morale enough, they will flee the battlefield, so wounding a "Deathstar Unit" isn't the only way to deal with it.
In Legion you have Suppression...but you also don't, because some models can't be suppressed (like vehicles and droids). And some units (vehicles) can't even be panicked (which is what happens when your Suppression value is doubled or more, causing the unit to run away), so dealing with, for example, a Rebel Snowspeeder or a Republic LAAT Gunship, requires you to wound them (which is hard to do, thanks to their armored plating): you don't have another course of action to deal with them, because you can't suppress them.
At least in game systems like Bolt Action, if you can't deal with a German Tiger Tank, at least you can shake up the crew enough that they panic and flee (they take enough pins to equal their Morale value) by shooting at them a lot, even if every shell or bullet bounces off the hull. But in this game, if you are looking down the sights of an AAT Tank, it's wound or be wounded.
And I love how simple yet effective MESBG is in regards to Courage: Courage is easy to understand (roll 2D6, add your Courage, try to reach a 10+), multi-purpose, tactically superior, and is minimally invasive to the flow of the action in the game. And if you can't keep someone out of the fight through Courage, there's a magic spell to help you circumvent the problem. A+ game mechanic that synergizes well with the rest of the system.
V. Melee Is AWESOME!
Technically tawn-tawns can charge into melee, but they are better at range |
Unsurprisingly, if you read my post about Bolt Action, I love a good scrum in the middle with two sides duking it out at the end of blades and points. The shieldwall, the breakthrough, the reinforcing of positions, the wagging of firepower from one side to another - I love it all.
And Legion does have melee - with Jedi and Sith, Mandalorians with vibro-weapons, wookiees and ewoks with "more primitive" weapons, and magnaguard droids with electrostaffs and such, melee does exist in the game. But most units are encouraged by their profiles to hang back and not engage in melee - and why would they, as it's generally safer in most games to fire from behind cover than to engage the enemy in close combat?
And with units being smaller and the ability of a Legion force to consolidate firepower into a small area through reaching out with range, the result is armies that can easily "gun line" and make melee nigh impossible unless you have a special/rapid deployment option that drops you in from a new location.
And that's sad, because melee is awesome: there's a lot more room for valiant acts and great deeds when you're surrounded by enemies, and I miss that when I play Legion.
And this is something that MESBG does really well, even above other melee-centric games: you really do feel the rush when Aragorn is surrounded by goblins of, "Will I get a 6? Or will he flub and it will be all over in one swell foop?" There's palpable tension in the melee, whether it's the surrounding of a hero, the crushing of one of your flanks and the thought of how you're going to react to that, or the thrill of seeing which heroic combat will be resolved first (and the inevitable kink that may be thrown into plans if the die roll doesn't go your way). For such a "simple system," it's quite elegant and builds the energy and tension surrounding what could be (and, depending on the factions at play, sometimes is) a dull and boring grind fest.
Conclusion
So lest Gorgowrath gets mad reading this post, because he loves Legion, I like Legion: it's my 5th highest game right now, and my 3rd highest tabletop game (I'm also heavily involved in RPGs, hence the rank discrepancy). It offers a fun and thematic platoon-sized skirmish game, which I love, and on the whole, each unit choice feels different, with lots of room for customization between your squads, so you can make each squad unique if you want. Most games don't offer that.
But part of why I think MESBG has only grown over the past 20+ years, despite not getting a lot of support during those years between The Hobbit and the new edition, is because the bones of the game - its core mechanics, firmly grounded in a very deep and evocative setting - are really strong, and it shows by how many profiles are still the same over 20 years later, and how many mechanics have been retained all the way through. And in an era where we seem to get a new edition of 40k to rebalance the game every 2-3 years it seems, it's odd that part of the GW house has remained basically the same for two decades. It's remarkable, and why I still love it more than any other game.
Do you agree? Am I just a sentimental old fool? Time will tell, :P In the meantime, you know where to find me,
Watching the stars,
Centaur
"Lie back on the floor," said Firenze in a calm voice, "and observe the heavens. Here is written, for those who can see, the fortune of our races." ~ Firenze, Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix
Struggling a bit with this article, especially as a response to the previous. We were promised a "slam" on the "I don't care much for how Star Wars Legion plays" and we just got more of the same, but this time framed as "boy, it's sure great that MESBG doesn't do THIS thing, maybe they'll get it right the next time around". Which is both a bit harsh (especially for a game that you've just started playing) and rather reductive of a whole game system.
ReplyDeleteBased on what's been written, I have no idea why anyone would play Star Wars Legion, and I'm actually a bit puzzled about why it's in your "top 3". This post is primarily a list about why this unrelated game isn't MESBG. I suppose if your expectation was "MESBG but Star Wars" then that would be disappointing but it's still an odd criteria to put on an unrelated game, made by an unrelated company.
I'd actually appreciate a deeper look at why an element of Legion does or does not work for you - there was some of this when discussing heroic actions (easily the most unique part of MESBG) but this was basically all bad-mouth, with no interesting contrast weighing the pros/cons of a game system.
On top of that, we've got the inaccuracies, which is perhaps the biggest bummer. Obviously, this is a newer game for your play group and tabletop games are complicated. Missing small stuff and not being fully engaged on the standard game flow makes sense, that comes with practice. But there's a few standout things that suggest you might not have the rule down correctly or other gameplay that you might be missing entirely.
Wrote a whole bunch of rules that might have been misunderstood and some general gameplay flow that was missed but it got way too long for a comment. Happy to share more if there's interest here (or via email if you'd prefer - I'd be so sad if you were missing out on some of the cooler parts of Legion due to a confusing rule interaction!)
DeleteTL;DR I guess I'd just hoped for a bit more compare and contrast between the two games, with some insight into things that do and don't work in both rather than just a list of complaints about a game not being another game. Really admire the work the team does here and generally enjoy your perspectives but between the framing and some kind of odd inaccuracies, both these articles feel like misses.
I've probably played a half-dozen games of Legion so far - and each time I've gone back to the rulebook and found that I misplayed something. New games, complicated rules, things are going to be wrong. I actually need to revisit my article from last week because I found out I may have miswrote how Cunning works - so . . . yes, you're right.
DeleteI can't speak for Centaur, but I know there are things about Legion that I like better than in SBG - I mentioned in my article that the command-cards-with-pips system for determining priority really intrigues me (and the fact that low-pip cards do less than high-pip cards is really great). A four-pip system with a seven-card hand does mean that you can tie a lot (good for lists with Cunning, I guess - but pretty unfun if you're shooting low and then lose because Cunning/rolloff says so), so I think having something like a five-pip or a six-pip system and a seven-card hand (giving you 1-2 cards that you can slot with whatever pips you wanted, max 2 of any kind) would be more interesting, but I like the system as it is too.
The primary driver I had for writing my article is that it seems all too common for players who are deep into SBG to gripe and complain about how unfair certain lists are in the game, how bad certain mechanics are, or how list building needs to be fixed. And on some points, they're right for sure. But the game is also good as it is - and in some ways superior to other gaming systems. And that's all.
If you'd like to send some deeper thoughts, you can shoot them over to joshua.kamakawiwoole@gmail.com - though I will say that we also manage a Star Wars blog (which we haven't posted on in like five years), which will probably see some Legion content coming soon: https://wretchedhivearmada.blogspot.com/. Can't make any promises (trying to build up the list of queued articles for SBG so that train doesn't stop), but with all the thinking I've been doing about Legion recently, I expect at least a few articles will drop for Legion over there as I get more familiar with the game (that, and I picked up the Tyrants of Lothal set for Imperial Assault recently and haven't reviewed anything from that expansion yet).
Sorry for the delay - long weekend mostly doing the job of parenting, so finally getting around to replying (and I'll give your email a more thorough reply as well, :) ). A few quick notes:
Delete1) The final article is far more toned down than the draft I had before, and I decided to pull back a bit because some of my criticisms were too harsh. Not untrue (I still have serious issues with how the ruleset is trying to be a platoon-based squad-based game when the rules actively prohibit you from doing the things that squad-based armies try to do), but harsh. And since we do have some players who read the blog and love the game, I didn't want to go too far in my criticism of it.
2) I cut a number of the things I like about Legion for brevity (as the post was getting way too long), and because we're an MESBG channel. We also have run a Star Wars blog in the past (by the way, it's https://wretchedhivearmada.blogspot.com/, and it has some of our content from Star Wars Armada and Imperial Assault, which we also play, and will probably be home to our thoughts on Legion once we've walked through it more), and I think a post of "What I Love about Legion" would be better suited to that outlet, as this audience is centered around MESBG specifically, and we don't want to cross-pollinate too much. It works from some channels (Zorpazorp comes to mind), but we do try to keep this channel for MESBG specifically.
And there are things I like about Legion: I like that you get to roll for Defense, which is one issue I've always had in MESBG, where if someone is rolling hot on 6s for wounding rolls there's nothing you can do to keep your guys on the board. In Legion (and in Warhammer Fantasy, 40k, etc.) you get a save: a chance to roll (even if the chance is slim) to evade the damage. As an aside, I also don't like how this works in D&D, and prefer Warriors of Zurn for this reason too.
But there are also whole aspects of it that don't really make sense to me. Like how the clear "suppression tools" in the game are better handled by a large squad of people because you can send shots from each man against a different unit in range and LOS, which means that an 8-man Battle Droid squad is actually better at suppressing targets than an E-WEB or similar "World War 2 Machine Gun" team.
3) We are very new, and are still very much still learning the rules, so I appreciate the feedback! I will note that I'm not a fan with how they wrote the rules, as some of the rules that should be next to each other are not, and others are different between the Learn to Play guide that comes with the starter set and the actual core rulebook, and that annoys me. And coming from a company that has made so many games (and being parent owned by a company like Asmodee which has sooooo many games under its wings), there's really no reason for this. Armada uses a similar dice mechanic, and its ruleset is far simpler with a lot more intricate pieces.
So I do like a lot of aspects about Legion, but there are so many small decisions that were made that actively take away from the feel they are trying to create. And I'd make those tweaks to bring it higher in the ranking. Currently it's losing to a World War 2 game that is badly imbalanced, but is easy enough to understand that you can work around imbalance with good strategy and tactics combined. In Legion, there are some armies as-written that are nigh impossible to work around unless you have a tailored solution, as high-level tournament play confirms (at least from the tournament lists I've seen in the past 6 months).
1 - Totally get practical reasons when it comes to articles and appreciate the adjustments that were made. I'd actually be interested to read more about what you wanted from Legion and were missing (and more on how you feel it misses the mark on squad/platoon based gameplay - I personally love it in contrast to things like Warmahordes or AOS/40k but love to see what systems do it better. The concept of the squad leader as the "I" of the unit with models shuffling around it is pretty slick and makes movement significantly faster than other large scale games IMO.
Delete2 - Excited to read more of what works for you about Legion on that blog as well! I do want to clarify how suppression and splitting fire works - you can only split fire between weapon types, not individual models. All the e-5 blasters go in one pool while the e-5c can be another. Though in general, it's better to maximize your dice into a target as cover remove 1-2 hits for each weapon pool before you even get to save. Splitting your weapons between targets is usually the exception rather than the rule. Something that might help your suppression woes!
3-Having followed this game from FFG to AMG and seen the ways the rules are written...yeah it's not the best. Learn to Play is basically useless, the Core Rules are actually a better version than what we had before but it's still a bit clunky, especially for newer players. Once you get the basics down, the Rules Reference guide is a godsend since you can find keywords and interactions but 100% agree that the rules aren't the most intuitive. Which is odd because they wrote MCP which is SO much easier to understand off the bat. A handy community tool is the legion quick guide put out by The Fifth Trooper Network - def recommend having it handing on a phone or tablet during gameplay: https://legionquickguide.com/
Tournament lists are a bit tricky, as there's definitely lists that can perform across a variety of objective layouts, but as with MESBG, it really comes down to piloting. The first part of the year sees two HUGE tournaments, including Worlds so you're getting the best players all together and that tends to skew lists certain ways. And even then, dark horse lists can perform very well, as demonstrated by Lyla and her pink mercs tearing through some more traditional lists ran by excellent players. There's imbalance certainly but it's rare to lose at the listbuilding stage and even then you always have a chance on the dice. FFG/AMG love their weird dice but I do genuinely enjoy the crit mechanic as a way to ensure it can be worth to throw that 1 crappy b1 shot into an ATST with 1 health on the 1/8 chance it can topple a goliath. That feels cool IMO.
Definitely happy to help via email if there's any other rules stuff that comes up! And I may be shooting some MESBG questions your way too - still learning how to do matched play effectively
Objectives can only be scored by unit leaders, so cohesion does not allow you to have a model trail behind or run ahead to help with scoring.
ReplyDelete