A global pandemic may have claimed TMAT's 2020 Grand Tournament, but those dark days are finally past, and a red sun is rising once more. The 2021 Grand Tournament is upon us--so of course, TMAT's resident armchair quarterbacks had to break it down!
In Part I, Tiberius, Centaur, and Rythbryt give an overview of the tournament's escalation rules, muse on the three scenarios, and discuss the six armies that will take the field before making some (very reluctant) predictions about the impending weekend.
Now available most places you listen to podcasts (including Spotify and Apple Podcasts)!
You can find the show notes and army lists after the jump!
Music: Happy Haunts by Aaron Kenny
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Show Notes:
- Intro (0:00)
- Centaur's Escalation List: Isengard (14:04)
- Tiberius's Escalation List: Lothlorien (23:10)
- Rythbryt's Escalation List: An Unholy Northern Alliance (32:12)
- Red Jacket's Escalation List: Rohan (49:28)
- Black Prince's Escalation List: Riders and Elves (1:01:50)
- Dronak & Strider's Escalation List: Monsters Galore (1:16:01)
- Reluctant Tourney Predictions (1:24:02)
Army Lists:
Centaur's Isengard
=====449/450, 23 Models=====
Lurtz with shield {Army Leader}1 Uruk-Hai Scout with banner and shield2 Feral Uruk-Hai2 Orc Warriors with shields and spears3 Uruk-Hai Scouts with shieldsUgluk1 Feral Uruk-Hai2 Orc Warriors with shields and spears4 Uruk-Hai Scouts with shieldsUruk-Hai Siege Veteran with Isengard Assault Ballista and two Siege Crew
Uruk-Hai Siege Veteran with Isengard Assault Ballista and two Siege Crew
=====600/600, 31 Models=====
Lurtz with shield {Army Leader}1 Uruk-Hai Scout with banner2 Feral Uruk-Hai2 Orc Warriors with shields and spears4 Uruk-Hai Scouts with shieldsUgluk2 Feral Uruk-Hai2 Orc Warriors with shields and spears4 Uruk-Hai Scouts with shields
Mauhur2 Feral Uruk-Hai1 Orc Warrior with shield and spear4 Uruk-Hai Scouts with shieldsUruk-Hai Siege Veteran with Isengard Assault Ballista and two Siege Crew
Uruk-Hai Siege Veteran with Isengard Assault Ballista and two Siege Crew
=====750/750, 45 Models=====
Lurtz with shield {Army Leader}1 Uruk-Hai Scout with banner and shield2 Feral Uruk-Hai3 Orc Warriors with shields and spears5 Uruk-Hai Scouts with shieldsUgluk2 Feral Uruk-Hai3 Orc Warriors with shields and spears5 Uruk-Hai Scouts with shields
Mauhur2 Feral Uruk-Hai2 Orc Warriors with shields and spears5 Uruk-Hai Scouts with shields
Uruk-Hai Shaman with armor1 Feral Uruk-Hai1 Orc Warrior with shield and spear3 Uruk-Hai Scouts with shieldsUruk-Hai Siege Veteran with Isengard Assault Ballista and two Siege Crew
Uruk-Hai Siege Veteran with Isengard Assault Ballista and two Siege Crew
Tiberius's Lothlorien
=====445/450, 25 Models=====
Haldir with Elf bow and heavy armor {Army Leader}7 Wood Elf Warriors with Elf bows1 Wood Elf Warrior with Elf bow, Wood Elf spear, and banner3 Wood Elf Warriors with throwing daggers and Wood Elf spears
Galadhrim Captain on armored horse with shield and Elf bow6 Wood Elf Warriors with throwing daggers6 Wood Elf Warriors with throwing daggers and Wood Elf spears
=====600/600, 26 Models=====
Galadriel with the Mirror of Galadriel {Army Leader}5 Wood Elf Warriors with Elf bows1 Wood Elf Warrior with Elf bow, Wood Elf spear, and banner4 Wood Elf Warriors with throwing daggers and Wood Elf spears
Haldir with Elf bow and heavy armor2 Wood Elf Warriors with Elf bows2 Wood Elf Warrior with throwing daggers3 Wood Elf Warriors with throwing daggers and Wood Elf spears
Galadhrim Captain on armored horse with shield and Elf bow4 Wood Elf Warriors with throwing daggers2 Wood Elf Warriors with throwing daggers and Wood Elf spears
=====750/750, 37 Models=====
Galadriel with the Mirror of Galadriel {Army Leader}5 Wood Elf Warriors with Elf bows1 Wood Elf Warrior with Elf bow, Wood Elf spear, and banner
2 Wood Elf Warrior with throwing daggers6 Wood Elf Warriors with throwing daggers and Wood Elf spears
Haldir with Elf bow and heavy armor3 Wood Elf Warriors with Elf bows6 Wood Elf Warriors with throwing daggers and Wood Elf spears
Galadhrim Captain on armored horse with shield and Elf bow3 Galadhrim Knights with shields and Elf bows4 Wood Elf Warriors with throwing daggers4 Wood Elf Warriors with throwing daggers and Wood Elf spears
Rythbryt's Unholy Northern Alliance
=====450/450, 22 Models=====
Galadriel, Lady of Light {Army Leader}Master of Lake-town6 Lake-town Guards1 Lake-town Guard with spear2 Lake-town Guards with spears and bowsAlfrid the Councilor6 Lake-town Guards1 Lake-town Guard with spear2 Lake-town Guards with spears and bowsGwaihir
=====600/600, 27 Models=====
Galadriel, Lady of Light {Army Leader}The Master of Lake-town7 Lake-town Guards1 Lake-town Guard with spear2 Lake-town Guards with spears and bowsAlfrid the Councilor6 Lake-town Guards1 Lake-town Guard with spear2 Lake-town Guards with spears and bowsHaldir with Heavy Armor and Elf Bow2 Guards of the Galadhrim Court1 Galadhrim Warrior with Shield, Spear, and Banner
Gwaihir
=====750/750, 42 Models=====
Galadriel, Lady of Light {Army Leader}The Master of Lake-town6 Lake-town Guards2 Lake-town Guards with spears2 Lake-town Guards with spears and bows
Braga6 Lake-town Guards2 Lake-town Guards with spears2 Lake-town Guards with spears and bows
Alfrid the Councilor6 Lake-town Guards1 Lake-town Guard with bow2 Lake-town Guards with spears and bowsHaldir with Heavy Armor and Elf Bow5 Guards of the Galadhrim Court1 Galadhrim Warrior with shield, spear, and banner
Gwaihir
Red Jacket's Rohan
Eomer, Marshal of the Riddermark on armored horse with throwing spears and shield {Army Leader}11 Warriors of Rohan with axes and shields1 Helminga with axe, throwing spears, and shield1 Warrior of Rohan with axe, throwing spears, banner, and shieldGrimbold of Grimslade11 Helmingas with axes, throwing spears, and shields1 Warrior of Rohan with axe, throwing spears, banner, and shield
=====600/600, 32 Models=====
Eomer, Marshal of the Riddermark on armored horse with throwing spears and shield {Army Leader}11 Warriors of Rohan with axes and shields1 Helminga with axe, throwing spears, and shield1 Warrior of Rohan with axe, throwing spears, banner, and shieldErkenbrand, Captain of Rohan on horse1 Rider of Rohan3 Rohan Royal Guards on horses with throwing spears
Grimbold of Grimslade11 Helmingas with axes, throwing spears, and shields1 Warrior of Rohan with axe, throwing spears, banner, and shield
=====750/750, 41 Models=====
Eomer, Marshal of the Riddermark on armored horse with throwing spears and shield {Army Leader}11 Warriors of Rohan with axes and shields1 Helminga with axe, throwing spears, and shield1 Warrior of Rohan with axe, throwing spears, banner, and shield
2 Rohan Royal Guards on horses with throwing spears
Erkenbrand, Captain of Rohan on horse
4 Westfold Redshields with throwing spears
2 Riders of Rohan with throwing spears5 Rohan Royal Guards on horses with throwing spears
Grimbold of Grimslade11 Helmingas with axes, throwing spears, and shields1 Warrior of Rohan with axe, throwing spears, banner, and shield
The Black Prince's Rohan & Lothlorien
Eomer, Marshal of the Riddermark on armored horse with throwing spears and shield {Army Leader}10 Riders of Rohan with throwing spearsGaladhrim Captain on armored horse with shield and Elf bow2 Galadhrim Knights with shields1 Galadhrim Knight with shield and Elf bow
=====589/600, 19 Models=====
Theoden, King of Rohan on armored horse with heavy armor and shield {Army Leader}7 Riders of Rohan with throwing spearsEomer, Marshal of the Riddermark on armored horse with throwing spears and shield6 Riders of Rohan with throwing spears
Galadhrim Captain on armored horse with shield and Elf bow2 Galadhrim Knights with shields1 Galadhrim Knight with shield and Elf bow
=====747/750, 25 Models=====
Theoden, King of Rohan on armored horse with heavy armor and shield {Army Leader}5 Riders of Rohan with throwing spears
Eomer, Marshal of the Riddermark on armored horse with throwing spears and shield5 Riders of Rohan with throwing spearsDernhelm with throwing spears3 Riders of Rohan with throwing spears
Galadhrim Captain on armored horse with shield and Elf bow4 Galadhrim Knights with shields
3 Galadhrim Knights with shields and Elf bows
Strider & Dronak's Monster Mash
Beorn {Army Leader}2 Great Eagles
=====600/600, 6 Models=====
Treebeard with Merry & Pippin {Army Leader}Beorn2 Great Eagles
=====750/750, 7 Models=====
Gwaihir {Army Leader}Treebeard with Merry & PippinBeorn2 Great Eagles
Hej!
ReplyDeleteAre the other 600/750 points lists available too?:)
As a passionate Rohan player I'm especially interested to see the Lorien&Rohan Riders in the points heavier lists! Hope everyone had fun playing!
Absolutely. We're still in the process of getting some of the higher points level lists uploaded, but I believe the full lists for both Rohan armies have now been posted. Hope they're helpful!
DeleteThey're all up now for everyone to view. The Lorien/Rohan list was interesting - I don't think anyone (anywhere) has run that many Galadhrim Knights in one list. :)
DeleteGot around to listening to this, and I have to have a "that guy" moment. ;)
ReplyDeleteHow do you justify Berserkers/Feral Uruks getting two wound saves (Fury+Oblivious to Pain) when their ability explicitly states "This is not cumulative with other special rules that confer the same effect."? To my knowledge, all other abilities expressly state you increase or decrease specific stats, and to my knowledge there is no other rule that grants a wound save other than fury. Plain reading would suggest they can't benefit from both Fury and Oblivious to Pain... Especially since fury itself is limited to one roll no matter how many Fury users you have ("...within range of *at least one* friendly model that has cast fury.").
So I’ll need to check on that, but... I suspect we just forgot that part. :-P If so, we’ll clean it up in the after-action report.
DeleteUnsurprisingly, Centaur in fact didn’t channel Fury, so at least no rules were broken (and I fully expect him to double-down on his position as a result of this).
Thanks for being "that guy" - there IS an example of this being cumulative for Gundabad Berserkers when you take the Signal Tower with Azog. What is normally a 6+ save becomes a 5+ save. The "not cumulative" here means they don't get a 5+ save, but it doesn't say they don't get a save at all. So, we've agreed in every game I've played that you get two 6+ saves . . . but yes, this could be a matter of objection.
DeleteSounds like a candidate for an FAQ then. ;)
DeleteSo here’s my argument for why it seems counter-intuitive to assume "not cumulative" is referring to Azog's rule since pretty much no other rule works that way.
1: The Tower rule itself *specifically* says it is “overriding other rules *such as fury.*” I interpret that means it works differently, not necessarily together.
2. The Tower specifically states it only applies to Gundabad models, and therefore shouldn't be considered as "the norm" for other factions.
3. The Gundabad Berserkers literally say in the rules the value increases *if certain conditions exist.* In other words, it is not “standard” and is its own special rule. Furthermore **they** also have the same “is not cumulative with other special rules that confer the same effect” wording. This would imply they do not get two rolls even for them, since they themselves receive a specific, and referenced, increase to the wound save number. This would make sense so that you aren’t receiving potentially three rolls to save wounds (rule, fury, and tower) which would be utterly broken.
4. Think of ALLLLLL the different reroll and modifier rules, the only ones that "add" something to a reroll or modifier *specifically* say so (+1 to wound for instance). Banner effects, magical auras, and other special rules don't stack by increasing the odds of something – unless it expressly says so.
All that to say, if we are using a contextual/originalist analysis, the evidence would suggest rolls don’t stack (one roll per model per wound regardless of number of sources of saves) or increase the “to save” number. If we are using a literal translation, it could be argued they could get two rolls (one from the tower, and one from their wound rule). Although I think a proper reading of the rule would say something akin to “All Gundabad models receive one roll to save a wound for each wound suffered, Berserker rolls are successful on a 5+ instead of a 6+.”
This is, of course, all in good sport. 😊 Obviously, I’m not intending to be anal about it since we can’t even play right now… ☹ I may also download Table Top Simulator and see if the programmed rules support your argument, considering I’ve not heard the interpretation of the rules aligned this way before.
You very well may be right - the way I see it, though, if an Uruk-Hai hero can attempt a Fate save after taking a Fury save, then a Berserker or Feral should be able to attempt an Oblivious to Pain roll. In no way are successive, independent saves "cumulative" - I think the idea of saves "stacking" was what was trying to be avoided.
DeleteBut like I said, I see how you could be right. I'll add this to my long email I'm writing up to GW to get in the August FAQ. :-)
Haldir has Hero of Fortitude Heroic Tier, how it could be ally with Gwaihir and Army od Lake Town ?
ReplyDeleteok, I forget about new errata, sorry.
DeleteYep, that's the reason--courtesy of "The Great Haldir Outcry of 2019" :-P
Delete