TMAT Talks: Episode 9 - The Ultimate Uber-Slayer Podcast (Part I)

Well, it's finally that time. 

After going through the top-10 monsters, casters, supports, snipers, and big honkin' things, the TMAT team is going to attempt the impossible: rank the top slayer models in the Middle-Earth Strategy Battle Game.

In Part I, Tiberius, Centaur, and Rythbryt begin by going over their various metrics for evaluating these models, then turn to three "special achievement" categories for the Forces of Good: the best generic slayers, the best "under-101 point" slayers, and the best slayers who can't take a mount (we have thoughts on this). 

They also spend some time talking at the beginning talking about their methodologies--for more on that (and more discussion on just how hard it is to rank heroes like this), you can also check out both Rythbryt's and Tiberius's take on Jay Clare's top-10 slayers for the forces of good.

Now available on Anchor, Apple Podcasts, Google Podcasts, Spotify, and wherever you listen to podcasts!

Music: Happy Haunts by Aaron Kenny

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Intro (0:00)

Methodology (1:07)

Good: Top-10 Generic Slayers (22:07)

Good: Top-10 Slayers for under 101 points (1:07:44)

Good: Top-10 Slayers who (surprisingly?) can't take mounts (2:00:27)

Jay Clare's Top 10 Slayer Heroes - Tiberius's Take

Good morning gamers,

A few weeks ago, Rythbyrt did a re-ranking of Jay Clare's Top 10 Slayers list for the Forces of Good. The MESBG community has had a lot to say about Jay's article (both here and on the rest of the interwebs), so I thought I'd provide a different way to evaluate the heroes on Jay's list. While Rythbyrt highlighted with pictures a lot of heroes who could have made the Top 10, I'm going to skip that and just focus on Jay's guys (most of them made my Top 15, so I think it's a pretty good list).

Methodology: Categories and Weights

Like Rythbyrt, we're looking at seven categories, but we're applying weights to them in order to make the two "Slayer" categories stand out more. I also decided that my ability to evaluate these heroes couldn't be done objectively if I took a subjective, feel-based approach (there are some heroes that I just want to see do well). Why didn't I feel like I could be objective?

Because I evaluated 178 profiles for the Forces of Good.

Yes, you heard me right - I evaluated heroes as powerful as Treebeard and as weak as Rosie Cotton. I did NOT evaluate Frodo of the Nine Fingers or Lobelia Sackville-Baggins because they couldn't wound anyone, and therefore are not slayers (somehow I doubt they would rank well even if they could). I could probably make a list of 50 models and say, "Yeah, I think I could rank these 50," but invariably, I'd miss someone, have to fit them in somewhere, and then look at the list at a later date and say, "Well, I know from experience that this hero is really good at killing things - I need to make room for him on the list." The iterations would never end and each time I'd probably feel like I got both closer to "what felt right" and farther from "what felt right". So to avoid all of that, I turned to math (and let whatever iterations fall where they would - for the record, I'm not happy with some of my rankings, but that is what it is).

The Stuff of Legends: the Defenders of the Shire

Good morning gamers,

Today we continue our series on Legendary Legions and we're joined by Centaur to talk about his beloved Halflings. The Scouring of the Shire supplement brought new life to the Shire list and with a host of heroes to choose from, it helps to have someone hash through it all. To that end, here's Centaur!

Part 1: What Do You Need?

Photo Credit: Warhammer Community
Legion Tax: 90-120pts

Centaur: You are required to take Meriadoc, Captain of the Shire and Peregrin, Captain of the Shire. And truthfully, this is fine, as you were going to take these guys anyways (because S3 Hobbit Militia with Piercing Strike if you take them with axes - which you should always do - at 5pts are just incredible), so it's not a "chore" to take them. 

The units you are actually required to take includes Frodo of the Nine Fingers (because a 6" banner is necessary), Holfoot Bracegirdle (because you need killers, and that means Shirriffs two-handing all the time), Farmer Cotton (because rerolls and a spear), and Farmer Maggot (because a two-handed weapon with Piercing Strike plus three dogs with high Movement and good Courage is a must). For an additional 175-180pts, you have plenty of room for troops, no matter the points level.

Thoughts on New Legendary Legions - Forces of Good

Hey Reader!

As Tiberius continues his march through the legendary legions, I thought I'd take a moment to share two ideas for legendary legions that we will probably not get in the future (as they are pretty closely tied to books we've already seen released), but that I think would be cool and provide new avenues for gameplay. Neither are particularly groundbreaking (and I don't think either are as good as other legions that are out there, consistent with my methodology for homebrewing stuff), but I think they provide unique options for gameplay.

We will walk through the first one, which is a Rohan legion (I know, I know, ANOTHER Rohan legion), and then into a Fellowship-centric legion.

I.  Eorl Comes Legendary Legion

This is the legendary legion that, I confess, I was surprised we did not get, as it would have given love to a longstanding Rohan hero, and would have given options for a new Gondor hero: Cirion. But perhaps that is also why they didn't do it, as there is already a Cirion in the Minas Tirith army list.

But the concept of the legion is straightforward: in response to the invasion of the Balchoth Easterlings from the East and a contingent of orcs from the Misty Mountains, Cirion the Steward of Gondor fought to keep the enemy from crossing the Anduin. He was pushed back, and faced them at the Battle of the Field of Celebrant, where he was joined unexpectedly by Eorl the Young and the Eothed.

While you can technically build a list like this using a King of Men and Eorl, that list leaves something to be desired, and that's where the legion comes in (much like how you can mix Lorien and Rohan normally, but a Helm's Deep legion works better).

The Stuff of Legends: The Grey Company

Good morning gamers,

In our last post, we looked at the Men of the West Legendary Legion and how you can work with an all-infantry army that is an amalgamation of FIVE different army lists (Minas Tirith, Rohan, the Fiefdoms, the Fellowship, and Rivendell). While its buffs might make it worth trying out, I think most players feel it's not as good as a historical alliance between Minas Tirith, the Fiefdoms, and/or Rohan (though we probed ways the Legion could be tweaked to make its non-Gondor, non-Rohan heroes a bit more appealing). 

In today's post, we're covering the Grey Company (another Legendary Legion from Gondor at War), but unlike the Men of the West, this Legendary Legion provides some really nice benefits over the foundational Rangers army list (with only one or two down-sides). There are three factions that you'd need to Ally to build this Legion normally (and you'd be a convenient alliance). Let's see what you get with this Legion.

Part 1: What Do You Need?

Photo Credit: Games Workshop
Legion Tax: 160-175pts

The only model you NEED to take in this army is Aragorn - Strider. Besides his horse (more on that in a minute), Aragorn has all of his usual upgrades available to him, except that he starts with Anduril for free (which is great - and not an uncommon Legion rule in the Gondor at War book, since all three Legions with Aragorn in them let Aragorn start with Anduril for free). Aragorn's max cost is 175 in this Legion and he is a BARGAIN.

In the supporting cast of named heroes, you have Legolas (no horse, but otherwise all his options), Gimli (option for Elven Cloak), Halbarad (no horse, but option for his banner), and Elladan and Elrohir (no horses, but otherwise all their options). Four of these heroes (not Halbarad) appeared in the Men of the West Legion, but while the Men of the West Legion forbids them from leading warriors (making them difficult to include into the Legion), there are no warriors in this list - so you can take any mix of them without any real loss to your army.

Finally, your "warrior" options are Rangers of the North, which is to say you basically have some battle companies heroes in your list! A single Might/Will/Fate point won't make THAT much of a difference (you still die after taking one wound sometimes, you can only boost a roll that was just barely losing/tying to tying/winning), but it helps. And it helps a LOT.

Revisiting Why You Should Always Take Eomer

 Hey Reader!

Years ago, back before the Middle Earth Strategy Battle Game was rebooted, back in the days when we didn't get consistent releases of new models and new supplements and we legitimately wondered if people at GW had given up interest in producing LOTR miniatures, much like a dude looking at a gal in a red dress by the name of "A Completely Unnecessary New Line of Space Marines" (no offense 40k fans - also, Space Wolves rule), I wrote a post entitled "Why You Should Always Take Eomer." With over 5000 views, this post is in our top 10 posts of all time, and I'd like to think it's because a lot of people thought it was true (definitely wasn't for the painting scheme): Eomer was the top dog in the Rohan list.

With the most recent iteration of the game, however, a lot has changed: Eomer can no longer take a bow, Theoden got a much needed boost, Theodred got a Fate Point, Gamling's banner rule has changed, and a new Rohan hero has arrived on the scene: Helm Hammerhand. So in light of a new year and the retrospection that it brings, I thought I'd dive into an old topic: should you always take Eomer as a Rohan player?

And the short answer is yes (assuming you are not running a legendary legion that doesn't allow you to take him, because those were also not a thing back then).

We will start by looking at the three primary ways to play the standard Rohan list, and then we'll talk about why Eomer is still by far the most important choice for Rohan, with everything else you take pivoting around this central character.

Back in the day, Tiberius disagreed with me, favoring Eorl over Eomer. I suspect he still does (possibly bumping Eomer to #3 behind Theodred as well), and I also suspect that Rythbryt favors Helm Hammerhand over Eomer (and possibly also Theodred), so I suspect that Centaur stands alone on this one, yet again, :P But if I'm not alone, lemme know in the comments below (or tell me I'm alone, that's fine too, :P )!

The Stuff of Legends: Men of the West Review

Good morning gamers

Today marks the beginning of a new series on Legendary Legions. For those who are unfamiliar, one of the hallmark traits of the newest re-imaging of the Middle-Earth Strategy Battle Game is a focus on theme. To that end, the armies provided in the Armies of the Lord of the Rings and the Armies of the Hobbit have been supplemented by new "armies" that can be taken that mix units from different lists (such as Aragorn, Legolas, and Gimli being added to army lists with Rohan or Dunharrow units) OR pared down lists to a smaller number of units to allow for thematic armies that mirror events in the movies or books (such as the heroes of Rohan at the Pelennor Fields or the Orc legions led by Gothmog). These armies come with special rules that make them different from your average allied-contingent force and some have become very appealing to both competitive and casual players alike. Because of their thematic nature, you can't ally with other factions when taking these Legions.

In today's post, we'll be tackling one of the most iconic and beloved scenes from the Return of the King - and one of the least popular Legendary Legions to date: the Men of the West. Recently there was a tournament review from the NZMEL's final event of 2020 where a Men of the West army went 3-3 in a 750-pt tournament (which I feel is pretty good). It may not be viewed by most as a competitive list, but I have been surprised having whipped it out a few times with how powerful it can be (especially at low points levels . . . which is really counter-intuitive).

We'll start off by looking at what is required by this Legendary Legion and how this Legendary Legion differs from its FIVE allied contingents (three that are normally historical allies with each other and two that are historical allies normally, but all five would be convenient allies instead). We'll then delve into the strengths and weaknesses of this Legendary Legion and what the purpose of the different units in the list is while doing this. We'll go over some recommended improvements to the Legion (if we had the power) and some strategies you can use in army creation/usage for the list. Finally, we'll look at some lists that showcase how to maximize the strengths of this Legion and mitigate its weaknesses. Let's get started!

Part 1: What Do You Need?

Legion Tax: 225pts

The only model you NEED to take in this army is Aragorn, King Elessar. "King Aragorn" (as we'll be calling him from now on) is one of the most beastly heroes in the game (if not THE most beastly hero in the game), capable of dealing lots of damage thanks to Anduril and winning duels round after round thanks to his Mighty Hero rule (which translates into a free Heroic Strike against big things OR free Heroic Combats against little things OR free boosted duel/wounding roll if you're up against more little things than you can kill OR free Heroic Defenses should you run into things that are too big for you). With 3 Attacks and a banner reroll (granted to both himself and any friendly model within 6" of him), Aragorn is going to win a lot of fights - and much of what he faces he will kill. No matter what you're throwing against him, King Aragorn has decent odds at beating whatever he fights.

There are two army building restrictions which create a pseudo-requirement on your army: first, no one gets horses. We'll get into this more when we get to the strengths and weaknesses portion, but if you're used to paying 240 points for King Aragorn (because you always put him on an armored horse) or if your first purchase for Eomer is a mount, then you'll find yourself saving some points on each of these heroes that can be thrown into something else.

The Men of the West Bonuses

Armies of Middle Earth SBG: Re-ranking Jay Clare's Top-10 Combat Heroes (Good)

Photo Credit: Gil-Galad on Facebook

Back in November, the legendary Jay Clare posted a list of his top-10 combat heroes for the forces of good. If you somehow haven't read it yet, I highly recommend you do so--it's well worth the read. 

The list prompted a fair bit of discussion in all corners of the MESBG community (as lists tend to do), including our TMAT community (in the form of a lengthy e-mail chain). The timing was fortuitous, because we've been thinking about this topic a lot lately.

Initial Impressions

Who are these little orcs? Voo-rahooom!

Photo Credit: Warhammer Community

I had several impressions after reading Jay's list. The first is that, overall, I think it contains most of the usual suspects one would expect. King Aragorn, Gil-Galad, and Elendil are probably in anyone's top-10 of LOTR-era heroes, while Dain and Champion Dwalin have sterling resumes from the Hobbit-era. Having played recently with Helm Hammerhand (and having a ball, even though he was unhorsed round 1), I can see his appeal as well.

Those six heroes share a lot of common features. All have either beefy combat stats (F6+, 3 attacks) or the ability to strike infinitely, and they also have the option to get a +1 to-wound (and sometimes better) and take a mount. Extra attacks on the charge, with a knock-down, and to-wound boosts will kill a lot of things.

The most surprising inclusions (for me) were Eomer and Durin. Both are incredibly tanky combat heroes (3/3/3 with 3 attacks/wounds for Eomer, and of course Defense 9 with a free 6+ save on all wounds for Durin), but their killing power suffers compared to the others (Eomer because he has no +1-to-wound option, while Durin lacks the high-end damage that comes from having a mount). 

Less surprising inclusions for me were Thranduil and Boromir (of the Minas Tirith variety--the Fellowship profile for Boromir would have been surprising). But they also have some questions. While both can take mounts and have spectacular Fight Value (7 base, plus Strike), neither has a way to get a to-wound bonus beyond spending Might (as neither has a hand-and-a-half sword, much less a rule like Weapon Master or Burly). And yes, I know Boromir can technically take a lance, but if he does he can't take the Banner of Minas Tirith--and let's face it... if you're running Minas Tirith Boromir, aren't you 99% of the time taking the Banner of Minas Tirith?

There were also some surprising omissions. Eomer is great, but when it comes to kill-power, his cousin Theodred might be a better. Eomer undoubtedly has the edge when it comes to toughness (3 wounds/3 fate is way better than 2 wounds/1 fate, after all), but while neither has a +1 to-wound option, Theodred at least gets to reroll all failed to-wound rolls (which makes his damage much more reliable, especially against high-defense targets like monsters or other big heroes). Treebeard is another surprising omission. Like Durin, he doesn't get any charge bonuses, but with Fight 8, Strike, Strength 8, access to Rend, some nasty brutal power attacks (Bludgeon, anyone?), and Strength 10 stones, he looks like a top-10 combat hero. And when it comes to crazy stat profiles, there's nothing crazier than the Champions of Erebor on Chariot.

Very dangerous over short AND not-so-short distances!

Photo Credit: Contains Moderate Peril

Part of the reason rankings like these are so hard is that while there are some stat characteristics that play an important role in being able to kill other models (fight value, strength, and attacks), there are a lot of other factors that impact how effective a profile is at actually being able to kill other models. 

Staying power is just one example (it's hard to kill something, especially a big something, if you can be easily one-shotted). Mobility is another--apart from the charge benefits that come from being mounted, moving an extra 4-6" per turn gives you more targets to choose from. 

The type of models that you're trying to kill also impacts what stats you need. The higher your fight value, the better your chances of killing monsters or other big heroes. But all you need to effectively kill 90% of most troops is Fight 6 (and Fight 7 is just as good against non-monster troops as Fight 9 or 10). A lot of big heroes, monsters, and even troops cause Terror, so if a combat hero has low courage their effectiveness may decrease dramatically. And, of course, there's the number one blunter of combat heroes of all time: enemy magic (Transfixed heroes can't make strikes, after all). 

As we mentioned towards the end of our last TMAT Talks podcast, the final categories in our "top-100" series are focused on "slayer" models, so we've been mulling these ideas over a lot lately. We've already recorded some of our rankings, which includes several subset categories (like "sub-100 point slayers") as well as top-50 slayers for both the forces of good and forces of evil... but we're not quite done yet. 

In the meantime, I thought I'd tease things a little bit by taking Jay's list of ten good heroes and re-ranking them based on how they slotted into my own top-50 list. It'll also give you a sneak-peek at the approach we'll be using in our massive slayer pods, which will start to drop over the next couple months. 

As with any "rankings," these are to some degree subjective, and you'll almost certainly disagree with some of these (Centaur and Tiberius certainly do). So be sure to let me know what you think in the comments!

Workbench Update: Building the Watcher in the Water

Good morning gamers,

So Christmas was wonderful - got some Galadhrim Warriors from Centaur to paint up, started painting some new Hobbits for the Quest of the Ringbearer missions, and got some flocking and flowers from my kids. Life is great.

One other addition I got was the Watcher in the Water (got a discount from Rythbryt) - and so during naptimes during the past few weeks, I've been slowly putting this guy together. Today I figured I'd show you how it's been coming along!

5 More Ways to Waste Might Points

Good morning gamers,

Last time we did this, we talked about the five things that I thought were the biggest waste of Might in MESBG. In October 2020, the Durin Show did an analysis of what was written, so since they seemed to eat it up, we're doing it again! 

Side-note: if you haven't checked out the Durin Show, you should - their discussions are brilliant. 

The situations I'm going to cover might be a bit less controversial this time, but a little controversy is good for getting us to re-think our innate assumptions about this game we love, no? Before we dig in, let's review the principle that we'll be following in this discussion:

Might is too precious of a resource to waste.

If you agree with this sentiment, everything we're going to talk through will make (at least some) sense. If you're like me, though, knowing that something is a waste doesn't make it any less tempting, so naturally, there will be exceptions to everything. :-)

Let's get into it!