Featured Post

The Scouring of the Shire, Part 16: The Battle of Bywater

Good morning gamers, This is it - this is for all the bananas! We've reached the end of the Scouring of the Shire campaign and we're...

Monday, August 26, 2024

Top 5 Profile Changes - Minas Tirith Edition!

Good morning gamers,

So apparently, we have a new edition ahead of us - and while I originally mocked up some thoughts for this mini-series to be posted next year, it seems like it would be good to get ahead of the "eight ball" as it were and get these ideas into the cyberspace and see what you all are thinking. One of the things GW has said about the new edition is that profiles are being reworked to better reflect what they did in the films (and I assume this also applies to the books), so I figured Minas Tirith would be a good faction to begin with a face-lift. I'll do a few more of these before the new edition releases (I hope I get all these through before the deadline!), so if you have thoughts on other factions that you'd like to see, drop a note in the comments!

For the sake of this series, I'm going to assume that GW is going to perform minor surgery on most of the profiles (and I expect some profiles will get by with little to no changes), so for my purposes in this post, I'm going to limit myself to a SINGLE change per profile that I think would bring the model from its current place of obscurity into a place all its own. When the last edition change hit, some profiles (like Theoden and the Balrog - both of whom had a renaissance in this edition of the game) got massive reworks, but for the most part, the profiles got minor edits across the board (like Warriors/Knights of Minas Tirith getting shieldwall or Riders of Rohan/Rohan Royal Guards getting Arise, Riders of Theoden). This is what we're going to do today. Let's start with one of my favorite Gondor heroes in the books/films . . .

Profile #1: Faramir, Captain of Gondor

Photo Credit: The Armies of the Lord of the Rings

In some respects, the current profile for Faramir is fine - if equipped with a horse, lance, heavy armor, and shield (a standard kit-out for a hard-hitting hero), he costs 35 points more than a Captain of Minas Tirith with a similar loadout and has +1 FV, +2 Courage, +1 Might, +2 Will, +1 Fate, has a different array of Heroic Actions (Strike/Defence/Accuracy/Resolve instead of March), Woodland Creature (which doesn't matter when he's on a horse), a slightly better shoot value (if you want him to be using his bow - definitely the case in his Legion, probably not in a normal Minas Tirith list), and a special rule that makes him charge things if Denethor is also in his army (could be a problem, but only if you take Denethor). All told, getting +1 FV, +4 heroic resources, some extra Courage, and more heroic actions is probably worth 35pts, but only barely.

However, Faramir isn't the only Hero of Valour or hard-hitting hero in the Minas Tirith list. For 15 fewer points, you can get Hurin the Tall on a horse and most players agree that he hits as hard if not harder than Faramir does, all while potentially denying VPs for killing your army leader if you can keep him alive (which matters more in some scenario pools than others). Additionally, you could just NOT get Faramir and ally in any number of sub-100-point heroes from the Fiefdoms or Rohan to get similar or better damage output than Faramir (all while keeping your army bonus). If you throw in the convenient alliance Heroes of Valour/Legend (like Gwaihir, Galadriel, and Haldir if you were looking for a bow-armed Faramir), the reason to take Faramir just kind of patters out. OH, and there are Minas Tirith Fortitude heroes who are threatening his place for far cheaper price points as well (admittedly, all of them are on foot, but they're also a ton cheaper, so there's that).

So how do you fix Faramir's profile? You give him a simple rule:

Precise Shot ACTIVE - When shooting, Faramir can reroll failed To Wound rolls. Additionally when shooting at a Monster model, wounds caused by Faramir's shooting attacks cause D3 wounds rather than 1.

If this rule looks familiar, it's because it exists already - in the form of Duinhir's Go for the Eyes! special rule. While Duinhir fans might argue that this will crowd on Duinhir's unicorn space, I beg to differ: Duinhir can provide rerolls to Blackroot Vale Archers near him (which Faramir cannot do), he's 25pts cheaper than Faramir with his bow to somewhat make up for the reduced stat line (-4 heroic stats, -1 FV, -3 Courage), he trades Woodland Creature for Mountain Dweller, and he doesn't have a berserk charge rule to work around with your list building. When compared to Madril (one of Faramir's chief competitors in the Minas Tirith list), one could argue that Duinhir costs a little too much as it is - but Faramir's giving you similar shooting abilities for a higher price tag. That makes things pretty fair.

It also makes Faramir slot into something that Minas Tirith doesn't currently have: a high-damage archery hero. Sure, there are Ranger heroes and Beregond who can take bows (to say nothing of the siege weapons Minas Tirith has), but S2 bows in the hands of most of their units aren't going to wound very reliably - especially against monsters. With the ability to reroll all failed To Wound rolls, Faramir finally has the ability to take on things like a Fell Beast (which he does with a single arrow in the Two Towers film). With rerolling To Wound rolls, needing a single 6, and dealing D3 wounds . . . yeah, that could deal with a Fell Beast in a single round.

If you don't think this would be enough to fix Faramir - or if you think it would need to come with a +5pt boost or something, fine. I still think this would be a good change and wouldn't break the game. I would also love to see his profile fixed so that things said about him in the books (like that he's more impressive than the men of Rohan who he meets in Edoras) are true - Rohan Royal Guard on the charge within 12" of Theoden challenge his current profile for a fraction of the points. But that goes beyond the pale of this post - now on to one of my favorite warrior profiles from Minas Tirith . . .

Profile #2: Osgiliath Veterans

Photo Credit: The Armies of the Lord of the Rings

I've defended Osgiliath Veterans (or "OsVets" as we call them here) already and in that post, I talked about some changes I'd make to make them cooler. When talking about the Rangers of Ithilien LL in one of our podcasts, I talked about how to fix them again with a single change. I'm hoping that one of two rules gets added to these guys: Shieldwall or Hatred (Mordor).

Shieldwall is the "lazy" answer (I use that term in the software industry way, which isn't pejorative, but is instead looking for the simplest, most elegant solution) - these guys haven't forgotten how to fight in ranks and they'd be as-good as Warriors of Minas Tirith (1pt more expensive to situationally have +1 FV and always +1 Courage) and sometimes better IF they had Shieldwall. Shieldwall itself is a niche rule and sometimes useful, but sometimes not (either because the extra Defense doesn't make your opponent's wounding difficulty harder OR because you were knocked over and so can't benefit from it). Still, the comparison would be a lot easier if there wasn't one situational rule on one side and one situational rule with one bonus Courage for 1pt/model more on the other side.

The more nuanced answer is to say, "Nah, these guys are fighting with more guerilla tactics and don't need shieldwall - instead, they're going to hit harder against a very common Evil keyword." LOTS of units have the Mordor keyword (including a lot of models that have been dominant in the meta for the past year - the Witch-King, the Mouth of Sauron, Ringwraiths, Black Numenoreans, Morannon Orcs, and Orc Trackers). Yeah, if the Witch-King/Suladan alliance is still a thing after this new edition drops (I assume they will be - they've always been able to work well together), getting +1 To Wound against the Mordor units in that list REALLY changes up the way the shieldwall grind works . . . and having good Courage would help with that matchup too!

Either rule - but not both - seems like a not-game-shattering but still meaningful change. I'm just hoping they don't get Bodyguard, since that will put them . . . in basically the same boat they're in now where there are "just better options" if you want Bodyguard (static F4 on both Citadel Guard and Guards of the Fountain Court, higher defense at a higher price for Guards of the Fountain Court). Okay, now on to the guy who is my ACTUAL favorite Minas Tirith model . . .

Profile #3: Gandalf the White

Photo Credit: The Armies of the Lord of the Rings

I'd like to start off by saying that I think Gandalf got some AWESOME changes from the "warband books" to the MESBG revamp - I really like his profile and I think it's the best Gandalf profile we've seen in the history of the game. While I'm hopeful that all wizard models will get the "your attack stat is equal to your remaining wounds" boost that the Vanquishers have (using the asterisk notation that Gulavhar has - GW, if you're reading this, 
that would be very consistent), I have a much simpler rule - founded in a scenario from Gondor at War - that I think would make his profile SO much better:

The White Wizard ACTIVE - On a turn in which Gandalf Charges, friendly Gondor Warrior models within 12" of him will count as being in range of a banner until the end of the turn.

This is half of the special rule (The White Wizard) from the Atop the Walls scenario - the other half of it makes him charge if he's able to (I don't think we should make Gandalf do that all the time). Minas Tirith has two 6" banner radius models (Aragorn and mega-Boromir - the other two really expensive Minas Tirith heroes) and a 12" banner historical ally in Imrahil (but that's only for Fiefdoms models). This would give Gandalf a banner bonus too, which is usually cited as the reason to take one of the other two hitting heroes from Minas Tirith (or the reason to ally in Imrahil) over taking Gandalf. While Gandalf isn't as strong of a combatant as any of these three, he's got some really potent magic that can give you a lot of support abilities - if he just had a banner, he'd be super strong.

His banner bonus, however, would be tied to him charging - so he wouldn't be a static 12" banner like Imrahil or a static 6" banner like Aragorn/Boromir (while he's standing - he's the only one who loses his banner radius if he's knocked prone). If you had Gandalf charging into a protected zone on the flank of the battle line, you could shield him from reprisals while setting up some good magic casting angles to get the most out of Sorcerous Blast (knocking over three people if the first will simultaneously move equally through two other models - or knocking over tons of models if your opponent has swarmed two models and you knock one model from one fight into a model in the other fight). Oh, and everyone fighting "near" Gandalf (a 12" radius doesn't really feel like "near" is the right term, but you know what I mean) gets a banner reroll. Brilliant - and I don't think it would be overpowered or that Gandalf would feel quite as overcosted.

While I would make this change tomorrow if I could, talking about Gandalf the White - and particularly the awesome model released for Gondor at War - drives us to our fourth profile for revamping . . .

Profile #4: Peregrin Took, Guard of the Citadel

Photo Credit: The Armies of the Lord of the Rings

It has long been the case that Pippin just doesn't make it into Minas Tirith lists - he's slow, his points value reflects his rather impressive heroic stats and not his actual statline (which is pretty garbage by all standards with F3/S2/1A and no shield option - for 25pts, even RUFFIANS wouldn't pay for those stats . . . unless you have to pay for Bill Ferny, in which case you wish he only cost you 25pts). Pippin is also an Independent Hero and there are a set of Minor Hero options in Minas Tirith for about the same price point (three Ranger heroes and Beregond). These guys can lead troops, their profiles are just better, their ranged weapons have long range and higher Strength . . . and don't require standing still, while we're at it. Yes, Pippin has 1 Might point and Heroic Defence . . . that's it. And Denethor is a cheeky 35-point Hero of Valour too, so he's competing in a way with Pippin as well.

But . . . what if he picked up the following rule:

Pippin - If Peregrin Took is included in Gandalf the White's warband and Gandalf the White is riding Shadowfax, Peregrin Took may be deployed as a passenger at the start of the game. Peregrin follows the rules for Passengers as presented in the main rules manual, with the exception that whilst he remains Gandalf's passenger, he may spend his Might points to declare Heroic Actions and affect Gandalf's rolls in any of the usual ways. Additionally, whilst Peregrin is a passenger, Gandalf also gains the benefits of his Resistant to Magic special rule.

This has been adapted from the Dernhelm profile in Gondor at War - which is neither an active nor a passive special rule. For 25pts, this makes Gandalf even more expensive, but it means he has 1 Might point for boosting his rolls while Pippin is a passenger (or Pippin can call a Heroic Move for Gandalf), he has Resistant to Magic that can be augmented by Fortify Spirit, and you can drop Pippin off at an objective/board edge in certain scenarios to help you win! It's awesome - expensive, but awesome.

Now if you consider this as a rule change for Gandalf the White, I'd consider giving Pippin Bodyguard as well - he's part of the Citadel Guard and all Citadel Guard models (Citadel Guards, Beregond, and Irolas) all have Bodyguard. So . . . as a freebie, consider it my submission that Pippin gets Bodyguard too.

Okay, one last stop for today, and it's another cheap Minas Tirith hero . . .

Profile #5: Damrod, Ranger of Ithilien

Photo Credit: The Armies of the Lord of the Rings

Yep, it's the OG Faramir's-cheap-helper hero, Damrod. After the release of Quest of the Ringbearer, there were three Ranger heroes and Beregond in the 35-points-or-less club and Beregond and ALL of these guys have cool rules (and in Beregond's case, a slightly stronger bow) and Damrod has . . . nothing. Well, nothing that the others don't have, since he has Woodland Creature. How does one fix this? Well, with a really simple special rule:

Forayer of Ithilien ACTIVE - Any friendly Rangers of Gondor, Warriors of Minas Tirith, and Osgiliath Veterans within 6" of Damrod, Ranger of Ithilien gain the Woodland Creature special rule. Additionally, friendly Rangers of Gondor, Warriors of Minas Tirith, Osgiliath Veterans, Faramir, Madril, Anborn, and Mablung add +1 to any Swim tests they need to make.

Damrod is described in the Two Towers as "descended from folk who lived in Ithilien at one time, before it was overrun. From such men the Lord Denethor chose his forayers, who crossed the Anduin secretly (how or where, they would not say) to harry the Orcs and other enemies that roamed between the Ephel Duath and the River." Using this as a title rule, we get a special rule that . . . honestly . . . doesn't matter that much in the Rangers of Ithilien Legion where everyone gets Woodland Creature anyway, but in that list, he's bringing six Rangers of Gondor that don't count towards your bow limit - adding swim test bonuses isn't a bad thing, but also won't show up that much.

In a normal Minas Tirith list, this rule for Damrod would allow Rangers of Gondor, Warriors of Minas Tirith, and Osgiliath Veterans near him to keep up with Damrod, Madril, Mablung, Anborn, and Faramir - something they currently can't do. In the old "warband" books, you could upgrade Rangers of Gondor and Warriors of Minas Tirith into Rangers/Warriors of Ithilien for 1pt/model and they would get Woodland Creature. We've basically resurrected that idea, but we've rolled it into Damrod's profile. Should he get a 5-10pt increase in cost for this rule (so he's like Anborn and Mablung)? I don't know - I think it could be fine. Adding the swim test bonus will be good on some maps and completely absent on others.

Conclusion

Hopefully this was a bit of fun - and I hope we see a few previews of revamped profiles before the new edition/sourcebooks drop (my poor wallet is already yelling at me)! If you have thoughts on these changes - or have ideas for other posts in this mini-series - let us know in the comments below! Until next time, happy hobbying!

19 comments:

  1. Interesting thoughts here. I agree with you that a lot of these models are very underused and it would be cool to see some new life breathed into them. Though I think the simplest way to fix Gandalf and Faramir is to lower their base cost. I think a big issue with cost disparity between heroes is that often, stats and special rules are valued equally (ie, Woodland Creature is valued the same as Master of Battle, +1 Courage is equivalent to +1 Fight Value). At first glance, it seems fine, but they really aren’t the same. Gandalf is paying a lot for his magic and combat abilities, but he can’t effectively do both at the same time.

    That said, I would really like to see Gandalf get a re-roll for his casting and resist tests in the next edition. He is supposed to be better than Saruman, and without the re-roll he can’t really hold a candle to casters that do get it.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. The rerolls would be really good - and should come with the white robe, right? Adding rules like this one or the Vanquisher rule of 1-3A based on your remaining health would be excellent, but I also thought these changes would be less impactful if that was all he got.

      And yes, points adjustments should probably happen too, but rebalancing costs for these guys would also mean rebalancing costs for similar heroes . . . which is hard to do in a single article. :-)

      Delete
    2. Yeah, balancing points costs is probably outside the scope of a single article lol. I would argue that most heroes are fairly costed in the game, but there are a few outliers who don’t quite pull their weight. We could go into the whole Dunedain/Beorning comparison, but I don’t think it bears repeating.

      Delete
    3. It does not "BEAR" repeating???

      Delete
  2. Great idea for an article and glad to see my first and main faction under consideration. However I disagree with your change for Faramir as I don't think it suits him at all. Beregond describes Faramir as someone that all the soldiers would follow into any danger, so I think he should get something related to that. A fearless bubble, +1 courage bubble, or a battlefield wide stand fast for example.

    My house rule is that Gondor Pippin and Rohan Merry get +1 to wound opponents that Gandalf/Eowyn are also fighting. Very situational but fits the story well, I thought.

    Love the idea for Damrod. Kind of want all the Ranger heroes to provide WC to nearby Rangers at least.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. A Fearless boost would be great on Faramir - particularly if you're trying to get Warriors of Minas Tirith and Rangers of Gondor to behave like Citadel Guards and Guards of the Fountain Court. Wish I'd thought of that. :-)

      Delete
    2. Yeah, in the books at least Faramir is a competent personal fighter, but there's nothing to suggest that he's exceptional (not like his brother). He has three things that appear to make him exceptional:

      1. His leadership like you said, probably best simulated by some sort of courage or stand fast related special rule, though possibly also a larger than usual warband (to make people who are trying to deploy a horde list consider him).
      2. His intelligence and education, so he should probably have one of the highest "Intelligence" stats you see on models that aren't Wizards or Elves.
      3. He has access to some sort of limited mental magic (similar to Aragorn and Denethor). A little hard to simulate in game, but he should at least have more Will than Boromir...

      Delete

  3. It will be great if Faramir become true ranger and more deadly shooty hero. Maybe he need some rule that buffs rangers around him too. I like him as charakter and his new miniature is great but I dont see any reason to take him to battle. So sad

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Yeah, I hope he gets a major rework - especially since he got a new model. Helping Rangers around him would be good, but I'd be watching Duinhir's profile in that case to make sure he's not out of a job.

      Delete
    2. Duinhir maybe goes to legends, and this will be a solution for tournament games. However, only time will tell. Let's see how things play out.

      Delete
  4. I think your proposed changes are good, and pretty elegant solutions to these profiles.

    I know I stand out from the popular opinion, but I don't think Gandalf needs such a big buff, certainly a 12" banner would be too much IMO. He's not efficient, we get it. He's designed that way, because he's literally the most versatile model in the entire game. I think banner effects are already abundant in MT; it's not an elegant solution. My opinion is you just accept he isn't a model for low points games. He's a perfectly viable model at higher points levels.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. I like him at a lot of points levels - but then again, I put heavy stock in Sorcerous Blast, so there's that. I think to the casual observer, it's less clear how Gandalf competes against the big heroes of Gondor, with banner bonuses on everyone else - yes, I could have gone with something less controversial and gone with just the rerolls or the Attacks based on remaining wounds, but this seemed a bit more interesting.

      Delete
  5. Long-time lurker - love all of the work that you guys do.

    I agree with your long term desire for Gandalf to feel as awesome as he does in the books and films. Do you think that giving him the ‘Masters of Magic’ rule from the Vanquishers LL would stop him from being overcosted?

    Not quite the same as your proposed banner effect or the commonly-suggested re-roll, but would reflect his film counterpart getting stuck straight into the fighting. That way he’d be able to cast magic throughout the game and do work in combat at the same time.

    Would definitely not want this rule to become the norm for casters though!

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. I mean, _I_ wouldn't object to being able to cast stuff in melee, assuming the same restriction was placed on not casting Sorcerous Blast while engaged. I think if that change and the dynamic Attack stat were both in play, Gandalf probably wouldn't be overcosted, but you definitely wouldn't want to add any other rules.

      Delete
  6. Hello there
    That's some interesting read You provided us with.

    I'd like to add my 2 cents to the topic with idea of buff to the osvets and indirect buff to Faramir and Boromir this way.

    This being a change in "Loyal to the Captains" rule.

    Simply changing increased stat from fight to strength, in my opinion, would suffice. Why not "Hatred Mordor"?

    I'd go with this - it's not that veterans trained especially to counter Mordor hordes, those happened to be there. They had to adapt to quick dispatching of orcs due to the environment. And that rule would make those profiles more universal.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Forgot to mention - strength upgrade would not provide so straightforward andvantage against likes of nazgul like "+1" bonus would provide

      Delete
    2. A universal boost like +1S would help with the S3 problem that Minas Tirith often has, but only if the enemy is D6 (or even-Defense). That's probably a good enough target, though!

      Delete
  7. I'd like to see either Damrod or Madril give Rangers Woodland Creature. Gandalf I'm not a fan of, I'm just not keen on sinking that many points to mount Gandalf on Filofax only to have a couple of casts not go off. Great if they do, massive points sink if they don't. Same can be said of any caster of course but Saruman doesn't cost 240 points AND he has a re-roll (not just a Fate dice re-roll). Yes, Gandalf has a list of spells as long as your arm, still only gets to cast one per turn though. He looks great in the display cabinet though. YMMV.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Gandalf does need time to work, but if I were to vote for one piece in the game that makes you feel like you have an answer to the scariest pieces in the game, it's the guy who has anti-magic, anti-archery, and damage spells on a fast mount. Yes, he's pricey, but if you're willing to invest in Warriors of Minas Tirith/Rangers of Gondor instead of Guards of the Fountain Court, you can get a similar list to what you'd see with Boromir. If you run Denethor, you can get comparable numbers to basically any Minas Tirith build. All this makes the cost a lot less of a factor.

      Delete