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It's a new year, and a new season for TMAT!
Tiberius, Centaur, and Rythbryt are back to talk about MESBG like only they can. And they're kicking off the new season with a topic near and dear to Tiberius's heart: legendary legions.
Personal preference controls in this snake-draft style discussion that's sure to entertain (we hope). Which legion will be selected first? Which will be left standing at the altar? And is a conversation Centaur had in an elevator single-handedly responsible for the state of the Dale legendary legion in Defense of the North? The answers to these burning questions--and more--lie within. So pick up a brush, get those drinks ready, and prepare to scream at your phone.
Now available on Anchor, Apple Podcasts, Google Podcasts, Spotify, and wherever you listen to podcasts!
Music: Happy Haunts by Aaron Kenny
Great podcast as ever!
ReplyDeleteI figured I'd share a few of my most pressing thoughts, although as ever with these very opinion-heavy topics I have too many thoughts to be worthwhile writing or reading.
I broadly agree on a number of the Legions, either in the positive direction (Riders of Theoden are unsurprisingly great, all the other Rohan LLs have their places) or the negative (Dale LL is absurdly uninspired, for example). However, there were a few disagreements I had.
First was with the Men of the West Legion, which is obviously a labour of love for Tiberius. I think the main point that I would make on it is around its model-count, and the heroes you'd be likely to take. It's very true that if you compare a 500-point green alliance with Elessar and Eomer to a 500-point LL build, the latter will have way more models and almost certainly be a stronger build. I think the problem with the comparison is that no one in their right minds would take Elessar at 500, or at least not with another moderately-expensive hero to back him up. A better comparison would be something like an Imrahil/Hurin green alliance, for example, which can field around 33 models at 500 while mounting both of its heroes. That build would have more mobility than the Men of the West LL, vastly better warriors (even Men of Minas Tirith backed by Dol Amroth pikes is better than anything the LL can realistically take), better numbers and arguably better heroes. Yes, Aragorn is amazing, but foot heroes kill stuff a lot more slowly than two mounted heroes with bonuses to wound. It's comparisons like that that really sink the LL for me, because they highlight the extreme points tax you're paying for heroes who have their 'mount tax' baked into their profile. Obviously good players can make results happen with any list, but I think unfortunately this LL doesn't really have any points level where it's optimal. At low-medium points it's definitely better than running those same heroes, but I just don't think those heroes are themselves a good pick for the points level.
Next up is the Beornings. I don't have too much to say on these, other than to note that they absolutely work at 500 (15 Beornings and Grimbeorn is definitely a list, it came second at a recent tournament here) and that I hate them with a passion. I have played this list too much, and every game is the same: kill the Beornings, hope the Bears don't eat you fast enough, and pray that the objective game is enough to claim the win. The only time I've enjoyed facing them was with my Watcher build, and that's just because it was an un-fun game in the opposite direction! They feel like an all-hero army (with all the frustrations that can entail) but without any of the interesting bits. Aside from edge-case and arguably abusive transformation interactions, the list doesn't have tricks, it just has stats you can't beat with most builds. At least the old Vanquishers made you think about how to play them! 0/10, would not play again.
Comment continued because I wrote too much as ever:
DeleteFinally, on a less fervent note, I think the problem with Eomer's Riders isn't so much that they can't build a scary build, but that even their optimal list and playstyle may be better as Riders of Theoden. I think your work (Tiberius) to come up with a way to use these guys is quite impressive, and I can't deny that the 'triple Heroic-Combat as the sun rises' strategy seems extremely intimidating. But even with that exact same strategy, I wonder whether it would still be better off running as Riders of Theoden and swapping Erkenbrand and Gandalf for Theoden and 2-3 other heroes. You could swap Gandalf for Theoden and Gamling and swap Erkenbrand for Dernhelm or Deorwine and still end up with at least 2-3 extra warriors on top. At that point you've got vastly more Might and combat power, a noticeable jump in models, free Heroics for all the heroes in the first charge, F5 warriors that can still hit S4 on the charge... it's a lot to give up. The temporary Shade effect is obviously amazing, but is it actually going to be better than all your heroes having at least 1 extra Might to spend (potentially on boosting a duel roll for almost the exact same effect)? And for the warriors, is it actually going to be better than being F5 every single turn they charge? Against F4 enemies the two sets of warriors will be identical as the sun rises, then the Royal Guard will pull ahead every turn after that. Gandalf obviously is the big unknown here, and if he goes wild or has a good matchup then he may be able to claw back a lot of the difference between these two builds. But overall, I just find myself wondering whether this Riders of Eomer build - played optimally at the points level that most favours it - isn't still just worse than Riders of Theoden.
In any case, great episode as ever, and looking forward to the next one!
All fair points - thanks for the comments! The Riders of Eomer can play the skirmish game against shooting-heavy foes longer than the Riders of Theoden because of Blinding Light, but even then, with a base Shoot Value of 4+ and S2 bows, they can't play the skirmish game for long against a dedicated gunline - but they can probably arrive with basically everyone where the Riders of Theoden would arrive with far more casualties/dismounted models. It is a travesty, though, that they can't get the +1 FV on the charge though.
DeleteOh, forgot to mention last night as well: you make a good point about the Men of the West as well - Men-at-arms of Dol Amroth are insanely good value when fielded by Imrahil, which is why I ask every FAQ season for them to be added to the Legion (or as a replacement to their overpriced knight cousins in the list). The Bodyguard would be the difference, aside from not having a March hero or rerollable dice on the Minas Tirith contingent. Still, the Fiefdoms/Minas Tirith (or even Fiefdoms/Rohan builds at lower points levels can be quite strong.
DeleteAll very true, there are definitely things that these armies can bring that you can't get from Theoden's Riders or a Dol Amroth/Gondor alliance. Any time you're getting a top-level Wizard or Aragorn Elessar you're always getting something, after all. The question is whether a meta or points level exists in which these Legions are better than their equivalents, and that's where I think they fall down. Theoretically they should be better in an Angmar meta thanks to Gandalf or Bodyguard, but realistically I know my Angmar build would feel a lot more comfortable against the Legions than their equivalents. Which is absolutely a pity, and something that's relatively fixable in the ways you mention
DeleteReally enjoyed relistening to this; in my notes I had Paths of the Druadan at last place (and I think I still place it there), but Rythbryt makes really good points in its favor. I tend to rank it low because its bonuses suffer from either 1) being situationally useful in ways that you can't control (we went to the NOVA Open, and there were several boards where there would be no suitable terrain for waypoints), 2) lacking what I would call critical "standard Rohan" bonuses, and 3) the tax to take the legion which leaves less room for critical elements that you want for Rohan. But now it's got me thinking, and I like that, :)
ReplyDeleteI had them at 12th - good late-second/early-third pick. Since there are three other Rohan Legions with access to Fight in Ranks (and you can have spears supporting Rohan guys in the Men of the West), I don't think the presence of infantry makes the Druadan Legion better than a lot of other Rohan lists, but it's still solid.
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