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Monday, February 12, 2024

Back to Basics: Banners

Good morning gamers,

When I first started playing MESBG (back when it was LOTR SBG), one of the biggest waste of points in my mind were banners. Depending on your faction, you'd pay 25-35 points for a flag that prevented you from taking additional war gear (like a shield or a spear), gave its carrier a -1 penalty to his dueling rolls, and "all it did" was give you a reroll in whatever fights you could fit within 3" of that guy. Sure, if someone was standing nearby, they could pick up the banner, but they'd drop all their additional war gear and become just another "guy holding a flag." No thanks, I'll take 2-3 more guys instead, please and thank you.

But the one guy in our group who wasn't fooled by the hefty price tag and restrictive nature of banners was Centaur - mostly because he was playing Uruk-Hai Scout/Feral Uruk-Hai Isengard lists (with little to no spears) and Rohan infantry spams (who couldn't get standard spears). Centaur told us again and again that banners were worth it - and like any fool, I chose not to listen to him.

Fast-forward about a year and we got "the warband books," where banners were standardized to 25pts each no matter what faction was fielding them and suddenly, an Elf, Dwarf, or Uruk-Hai carrying a banner suddenly looks a bit more appealing (all three of which I was collecting at the time). Shortly thereafter, the Lord of the Rings Strategy Battle Game was rechristened the Hobbit Strategy Battle Game and now banner-bearers could carry extra gear . . . that's neat. Fast-forward about five more years and we enter the current era of the Middle-Earth Strategy Battle Game and now you can pile up your banner-bearer with more gear than any reasonable person can actually handle . . . it's a good time to be playing the game.

But what is a banner, really? What's it doing for me and why do all those competitive players say I should have one? Well today, we're continuing our "back to basics" series and talking about all things banners - both the actual banners, the different units that are treated as banners or make other units count as being within range of banners (yes, there's a distinction with a difference there), fancy banners, and things that work LIKE banners but actually aren't banners . . . we've got a lot to cover, so let's get into it!

Traditional Banners

As has been alluded to above, one model involved in a fight that has at last one friendly model within 3" of one or more banners may reroll one of its dueling dice. The friendly model can be engaged with an enemy model or supporting in a fight (with a spear or pike) and the entire fight will count as being in range. This means that a die can be rerolled by a model that isn't within range of the banner just because his friend is close enough to the banner to trigger its rules. The exception to this is if you field an Impossible Alliance - allied models in an Impossible Alliance can't benefit from the banners of another allied force (this is because they - apparently - didn't exist at the same time, so there needs to be some penalty for bringing this level of cheese to the table). Simple, right?

The timing of the reroll is important though: any reroll you make from a banner must be made before either player spends Might points. The fact that you'd reroll before using Might makes sense (why boost to a higher roll when you might get it naturally with a reroll?), but if you're tied with your opponent's roll and want to reroll before he boosts his roll to be higher, you have to reroll for the banner first. If you've got more than one die in the duel, reroll your lowest die regardless of whether you're winning or not - but if you only have one die in the fight, you'll need to decide if you're okay with your currently-winning roll or if you want to risk getting something higher with a banner reroll. I'd only do this if your "currently-winning roll" is a 2-high or a 3-high - chances are good you'll get as good or a better roll than a worse one AND it may make your opponent unable to boost his own roll high enough to win. If you're winning on a 4 or higher, settle for forcing out a Might point by your opponent instead (it's still good).

Another constraint on banners is that a model carrying a banner must be standing in order for the banner effects to trigger. If you can knocks Prone an infantry model carrying a banner, snipe out the horse from beneath a banner-carrying model and they get Knocked Flying on their thrown rider test, or if you have a magical power that can knock a banner model Prone, you can neutralize the effectiveness of a banner for a turn.

While a banner won't apply any penalties to nearby fights, a model carrying a banner suffers a -1 penalty to its dueling roll. This is cumulative with penalties you receive from having certain weapon combos (so an Uruk-Hai Warrior with a banner, pike, and shield would suffer a -2 penalty to its dueling roll) AND is cumulative with any special rules that apply dueling penalties (so an Uruk-Hai Warrior with a banner who is within 6" of an Angmar Shade will suffer a -2 penalty to its dueling roll). While it's fine to have a banner in a fight with someone else, you generally don't want to have these guys fighting alone . . . ever.

If a warrior model (not a hero model) who is carrying a banner is killed, you can pass the banner off to a friendly Warrior model (not a hero model) who is in base contact with the just-killed banner guy, is not prone (has to be standing), and is not engaged in a fight. Any previous equipment the new banner model was holding is retained, so sometimes you can actually get a "better" banner configuration than you had before (for example, a Warrior of Arnor needs to swap its spear for a banner if you buy them one, but if he dies and is in base contact with a non-prone, unengaged Warrior of Arnor with a spear and shield, the new banner model has a banner, spear, and shield instead of just a banner and shield).

Finally, there are three scenarios that can give you bonus victory points if you have at least one banner alive at the end of the game. These scenarios can be incredibly one-sided, so having an actual banner can be really, really good for you. To The Death awards 7 VPs to an army that can quarter its opponent without being broken and the remaining VPs are tied to wounding/killing the enemy army leader (1-3 VPs) and having a banner alive (1-2 VPs, depending on whether only one player has a banner left). Heirlooms of Ages Past gives a ton of VPs to whoever is holding the heirloom, but assigns half of the VPs in the scenario to breaking the enemy (1-2 VPs), wounding/killing the enemy army leader (1-2 VPs), and having a banner (1-2 VPs). Finally, Destroy the Supplies (which I LOVE as a scenario) has half the VPs tied to destroying your opponent's supply markers (6 VPs), and the same 6 VP distribution as Heirlooms. In any of these scenarios, having some VPs tied to "just having a banner alive" can outweight being outplayed in the "actual objective" of the scenario.

Okay, these are the rules for banners - and like the rules for control zones, they seem pretty straight-forward. Well, if there were only one kind of banner, that would be true . . . but there are actually LOTS of kinds of banners in MESBG. Let's start by talking about . . .

Special Banners

These banners are available through a select number of hero profiles and in general, they behave the exact same way as the "normal banners" listed above. How they differ is usually their auric range and the special rules they provide. No matter which one we're talking about, they all remove the -1 penalty to the dueling roll for the model "carrying it."

Most of these are available to Forces of Good models and our first stop is Gamling and the Royal Standard of Rohan. Gamling's banner has a 3" range and besides the rules for a normal banner, at the start of each round, one friendly Rohan Hero within 3" of Gamling and has 0 Might points can regain 1 Might point that had been previously spent in the battle. This has been errata'd from the original printed text of EVERY Rohan Hero to one Rohan Hero . . . which was absurd back then (but I'm not sure that it quite rose to the level of "broken," since the 3" range forced these heroes to all be concentrated in one place - and while that could be painful, in some scenarios, you're going to have to split up before the end anyway). As a 50pt upgrade on a 55-65pt hero, Gamling's banner is usually worth taking if you're looking into a banner in a Rohan list.

Halbarad has the Banner of Arwen Evenstar, which is a 40pt banner that has a 6" range AND gives all models within 6" of Halbarad the Fearless special rule. So . . . you fear no Terror and your army near Halbarad isn't running . . . perfect. Halbarad has a bow and a 3+ Shoot Value (as well as 3-Might-and-Strike), so if you're looking to run a pure Rangers list OR ally the Rangers with the Shire (who we'll talk about below, but don't have access to spears on their warriors and don't have any actual banners that can get them VPs in those three scenarios mentioned above), Halbarad is an excellent choice.

The final special banner available to the Forces of Good might be the most famous of all - it's the Banner of Minas Tirith with Boromir, Captain of the White Tower. This banner, like the Banner of the Evenstar, has a 6" range and also provides a +1 Fight Value boost to Boromir and all friendly Gondor Warrior models within 6" of Boromir - this is often used to boost Boromir to F7 and boost your Guards of the Fountain Court or Rangers of Gondor to F5, but it can also be used to boost Osgiliath Veterans, Citadel Guard, Men-at-Arms of Dol Amroth, Knights of Dol Amroth, Clansmen of Lamedon, or Axemen of Lossarnach to F5 as well (to say nothing of boosting Warriors/Knights of Minas Tirith or Blackroot Vale Archers to F4). The only "penalty" applied to Boromir while carrying this banner is that he can't take a lance, so he'll be "stuck" at S4 with no bonuses To Wound. The jury's out on which is better - you should know that most competitive players take the banner, but I like the lance and so do a few other people. There is a big question about whether you should be running Boromir with the lance when you could be running Imrahil with a lance, but we'll get to him later.

On the Evil side of the house, we have a few odd-ball guys to cover. The most straight-forward is Suladan the Serpent Lord and the Serpent Banner, which is just a banner with a 6" radius. Since this is baked into his base cost, Suladan is commonly viewed as the best value banner guy you can ally into a War of the Ring era Evil force - and since he's a Hero of Legend, he can ally with any army and bring 18 warriors with him . . . sheesh.

Often overshadowed by Suladan is the Golden King of Abrakhan and the Golden Throne, which has two 25mm infantry bases that are each used to extend a 3" banner radius. Functionally, this covers slightly more area than your standard 3" banner, but not as much space as a 6" banner. Since Suladan can be mounted on a horse (40mm base) with a 6" banner radius, most competitive players will take him over the Golden King . . . and given the nasty shenanigans the Golden King can do, I'm perfectly fine with that.

The newest special banner kid on the block is the Dragon Emperor of Rhun, whose Royal Palanquin has the Standards of the Emperor. These are a banner that has a 12" range, measured from the obnoxiously large base of the Emperor - and because they're strapped to the Palanquin and aren't being held by the Emperor, the Dragon Emperor suffers no penalties from them . . . of all the special banners, this one gets the most attention for a reason.

Finally, there are four elements on Azog's Signal Tower that count as banners for the purposes of victory points, one of which also serves as a banner that has a battlefield-wide auric boost - which is pretty crazy, but since no model exists for it and the Signal Tower itself is 200 points, you don't see it much in competitive play . . . except by the dedicated.

These are all of the different models that have "actual banners" that can score you victory points in scenarios, but there are quite a few other ways you can get the rerolls from a banner without having the hardware of a banner. Let's look at the four different ways you can do that . . .

Banner Rules - Three Categories (and an odd fourth guy)

The first category of models that give banner benefits without actually carrying banners are the four "models" who are "treated as a banner." This terminology requires that the hero or object is not prone in order to provide the banner reroll (which in one case is moot), but there's no penalty to their dueling rolls and they otherwise follow all of the normal rules for banners (gotta be within 3" of them unless a different range is specified). These models are Bill the Pony, who is treated as a banner by Hobbits and Barliman Butterbur, Amdur, Lord of Blades by all friendly Easterling models (he's treated as a banner with the normal 3" range initially, but this gets extended to a 6" range if he kills the enemy army leader), Sid Briarthorn (for all other friendly Ruffian models - but not himself), and the Campfire for the Three Trolls if they keep their army bonus.

The three heroes and the one object above are "treated" as a banner, so everything that applies to our discussion above has to be true - most notably, you can't be prone. Having one of these heroes (or the object) doesn't give you VPs, though. The same is true for our second category of heroes, those that make units "count as being in range of a banner." This category of heroes also don't count for VPs, but they also don't have to be standing in order to provide their benefits. As with the last set, most of these heroes only allow certain kinds of units to get the banner bonus, and an FAQ has clarified that only units of the specified keyword types can perform the reroll (instead of one friendly model in the fight) AND one of the units of the specified keywords has to be the model within range of the hero in order for the fight to receive the banner reroll. This category of heroes requires more conscious checking, but otherwise works exactly like the last group of heroes.

The first set of heroes we'll talk about are those that have a "count as a banner" rule innately - no spending of resources or army/Legion special rules. Characters who meet this bill with a 3" banner radius include Erkenbrand, Captain of Rohan (for all Riders of Rohan who have been upgraded to Westfold Redshields) and Corsair Bo'suns (for all friendly Corsair models). This is a pretty short list - even smaller than the list of models/objects that are treated as a banner.

Characters who make other models within 6" count as being within range of a banner are far more plentiful and include Frodo of the Nine Fingers (for all friendly Hobbit models), Aragorn, King Elessar (for all friendly models - no keywords required), Angbor the Fearless (for Clansmen of Lamedon only - with or without their army bonus), Buhrdur (for all friendly Angmar Orc/Troll models on a turn when Buhrdur kills an enemy Hero/Monster model in combat - no chucking those stones to trigger this rule, Centaur!), Khandish Kings (for all friendly Khandish models), Bard the Bowman (for most of the models in the Survivors of Lake-town list, which has some cross-over into the Army of Lake-town list - and these models will get +1 Fight Value as well), Thranduil (for friendly Mirkwood Cavalry models), Thorin Oakenshield, King Under the Mountain (for Kili and Fili normally, but possibly more models as we'll see later), and Beorn/Grimbeorn when they are in their Bear forms (for friendly Beorning models only). This is quite the collection of models, no?

There are other heroes who can get a 6" banner radius for nearby models by spending resources - Will Whitfoot can spend a Will point (fitting that Will should have to spend Will, no?) to affect all friendly Hobbit models within 6" of him, the Dark Marshal can spend a Will point to affect all friendly Warrior models (not heroes) within 6" of him, and the Master of Lake-town can spend a Might point to affect any friendly Braga, Lake-town Guard Captains, or Lake-town Guard within 6" of him (and give them +1 Fight Value).

Finally, there are two profiles in the game that have a 12" "counts as a banner" rule applied to them. Prince Imrahil of Dol Amroth has already been hinted at and he will count as a banner for all Captains, Knights, and Men-at-arms of Dol Amroth within 12" of him normally - and he'll extend this to all models from the Fiefdoms army list if you keep his army bonus. For a good chunk of points less than Boromir with his banner, he provides a larger area of banner coverage and has a very similar combat profile. And a lance. Oh, and he'll boost the Fight Value of those Dol Amroth models by 1 within 3" of him, which isn't as good as Boromir's banner, but once again, he's a lot cheaper . . . and it's also not uncommon to see Imrahil AND Boromir in a list because their Fight Value buffs will stack, even though their banner bonuses won't.

Second, both Theoden and any version of Aragorn will count as a banner for Haldir if he's in the same army and within 12" of them . . . he'll also auto-pass any Courage test he has to take . . . which isn't that much of a boost, considering he starts at C6, but still. Okay, this covers the profile-specific banner buffs - and as you can see, there are a TON of them. But we're actually not done with this category of models yet, since there are also banner rules conferred by army bonuses and Legendary Legion rules . . .

The first Legion that applied a 6" "counts as a banner" rule to a hero was the Return of the King Legendary Legion - Aragorn is already a powerful model, but if he counts as a banner for Warriors of the Dead, Riders of the Dead, Heralds of the Dead, and the King of the Dead, even better! Since then, there have been only three Legendary Legions that have picked up a "counts as a banner" special rule on at least one hero: Elrond in the Vanquishers of the Necromancer Legendary Legion counts as a banner for all other friendly models (not himself - but he's already got a reroll for his dueling roll with Lord of the West), the four "big guys" in the Defenders of Erebor Legendary Legion (King Dain, Thorin III, King Brand, and Bard II) count as banners for all friendly models within 3", and all friendly models count as banners for all other friendly models in the Breaking of the Fellowship Legendary Legion . . . which sounds much better than it actually is, since there's a max of 8 models on the board. I think this is a great Legion, but the rule itself is a bit hard to trigger more than 2-3 times each round.

There are two army bonuses that give out banner rules as well. The first is the Army of Thror, which makes Thror count as a banner for all friendly Erebor Dwarf models within 6" (all of the models innately in the list, but won't apply to any allies you bring in). The other army bonus changes a bit based on your army composition - and it's the Erebor Reclaimed army bonus. If you run it as a Hobbit-era army, then all of your Erebor models (King Thorin and the Champions of Erebor) treat Thorin as a banner if they're within 6" of him. If you run it as a War of the Ring-era army with King Dain, then all of your Erebor models (which is now everyone in the list - warriors and heroes) treat Dain as a banner if they're within 6" of him. That's . . . kind of like Thror, only on a more punchy, less resilient chasis.

Our third category of pseudo-banners are things that give rerolls to you combat, but are NOT cumulative with banner rerolls. There are currently only two models that do this - and they are Moria Goblin Drums and Moria Blackshield Drums. For Moria, these things basically ARE your banners - and in the Depths of Moria Legendary Legion, they give you VPs like banners in scenarios where that's a thing. Sure, you can ally in real banners from basically every faction in the game as convenient allies, but if you want a far-reaching reroll (12" on Blackshield Drums, 18" on Goblin Drums - both of which are battlefield-wide in the Depths of Moria LL), these are excellent choices . . . for one faction and one Legion in the game.

Our fourth and final category are the things that give you a reroll to your dueling roll - but IS cumulative with banner rerolls. There aren't many situations where you can have two rerolls to your dueling roll, and most of them are hard to trigger or heavily caveated. The first is available to any Haradrim/Mahud model within 3" of a Mumak of any kind - you can reroll a die AND reroll another die with a banner if you want to. Being this close to a Mumak is dangerous, but if you're trying to pull models out of his fight, it's incredibly useful. There are other models that have more conditional rerolls - Farmer Cotton and any friendly Hobbit models within 3" of him can reroll 1s on their dueling dice, Hurin the Tall can reroll a dueling die if he's within 3" of Denethor or Aragorn, King Elessar (who you may recall counts as a banner, so Hurin would be able to reroll two of his dueling dice), and all friendly Corsair Warrior models within 3" of Delgamar get to reroll a dueling die (and risk taking a S2 hit if they lose the duel - and this reroll is actually available to you on all dice being rolled for the duel, so depending on how many guys you've piled in, this can be HUGE).

Finally, there are two Legendary Legions that give dueling die rerolls that can be made in addition to banner rerolls. The first is for all Easterling Hero models in the Host of the Dragon Emperor Legendary Legion - they get to reroll a dueling die, which stacks with the 12" banner radius of the Dragon Emperor (who is, of course, required in that Legion). The second Legion that gets very conditional rerolls is the Cirith Ungol Legendary Legion, where Shagrat and Gorbag can reroll a dueling die if the other one is out-killing them. This involves more record-keeping, but it's also really fun and thematic. There are other special rules that can give rerolls to models that are cumulative with banners (such as Lord of the West, which is present on four Elven heroes - and a similar rule is present on two other heroes), but most units have to rely on banners to get any kind of do-over for their rolls.

Test Time!

For those of you who want to over-achieve, I've written up a quick five question test to see if you can figure out if the model circled in red in each picture will benefit from a banner or not. You can check your answers after the sign-off if you want to!

Q1: Can the Uruk-Hai Warrior circled in red reroll one of his dueling dice once they engage?

Q2: If Aragorn has been taken from the Return of the King Legendary Legion (where Spirit models treat him as a 6" banner), can he reroll one of his dueling dice thanks to having a Warrior of the Dead with spear and shield in his fight?

Q3: Can Thorin Oakenshield reroll one of his dueling dice?

Q4: Can Eomer reroll one of his dueling dice?

Q5: Can this Moria Goblin reroll one of his dueling dice once he engages?

Conclusion

So . . . that's banners (and probably a lot to think about). Banners are incredibly useful because they can turn a was-going-to-be-lost fight into a won fight - or a tied fight that goes to a roll-off. Sometimes banners can be hard to keep where you need them, but some can have incredibly long reach and can completely change the way a game is going. If you have any thoughts on banners - and anything I left out? - let us know in the comments below! Next time, we're going back to the basics of magical powers and sorting through what the magical powers are and how to use them! Until then, happy hobbying!











If you made it this far, I assume you want to check the answers for your test - BLUF: most of them are "no." Here's why:

1) The Uruk-Hai Warrior is beyond 3" of the Uruk-Hai Warrior with pike and banner and since he has no supporting models within range, his fight is not in range of the banner. With the exception of the Uruk we viewed, the Uruk with shield guarding the other flank, and potentially the two shield-armed Uruks next to these flankers (depending on the order in which fights are resolved), everyone else in the formation will have a banner reroll . . . which is part of why I like this formation so much. :)

2) Because Aragorn - Strider doesn't have the Spirit keyword, his fight is in range of the banner, but he cannot reroll a dueling die (only the Warrior of the Dead can).

3) This one may have caught a few people, but because Thorin Oakenshield is an Impossible Ally with any way you field a King's Champion (but especially with Durin), his fight does not count as being in range of the banner.

4) This one may come as a surprise to some, but Eomer's fight is in range of a banner and so even though Eomer is nowhere close to 3" away from Gamling, he can reroll a dueling dice. This is bizzare, huh?

5) The answer to this one is "it depends." The models you see on the board are compatible with the models you can take in the Depths of Moria Legendary Legion - and if this army is fielded in that Legion (and it probably should be), because Moria Goblin Drums (and Moria Blackshield Drums) have battlefield-wide range in the Legion, the Moria Goblin's fight will be in range of the banner. However, if fielded as a normal Moria list, the answer is no, as his fight will be beyond 18" of the Drum (and the drum can't be played and move in the same turn).

14 comments:

  1. referring to the Banner of Arwen Evenstar, in my book it is 40 pts for this flag, NOT 60 (but maybe I miss some errata/FAQ update...? I usually do not play this faction). And thank you for pointing out that it is the FIGHT that has to be in the radius, not the MODEL per se, for the bonus to work. It is usually overlooked :)

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    1. Halbarad's banner is in fact 40 points, which is excellent value for 6" of banner rerolls plus the Fearless buff. Halbarad also suffers no penalties for bearing that banner (I believe Boromir is the same, and maybe Gamling, too), which is a nice plus.

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    2. Indeed, Gamling suffers no penalty (fun thing, in one friendly match - low points, to the death, all-hero armies - against Moria, eventually lost by me, but Royal Standard gave me about a dozen Might points, which is INSANE! in the late phase mostly for H. Defences... ;P)

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  2. Banner effects are a pain because they have several different wordings and even the FAQs about these effects have answers which... use yet another wording. Urghhh!

    There was a FAQ that said that some Heroes "will count as banners" (these Heroes must be standing to get the reroll). AFAIK there isn't a single banner effect that has the wording "counts as a banner"; there's only "is treated as a banner" and "specific models are treated as being in range of a banner".

    But here's the thing: the other banner effect FAQ ("the specific models must be in range and only their dice can be rerolled") comes as a result of the Heroes not actually *being banners*. Thus it seems to me that Amdur (and other "treated as banners") either is a banner or isn't. If he is, why wouldn't he count for VPs as well? And if he isn't, why wouldn't the second FAQ apply to him as well?

    I hate the second banner effect FAQ with a passion if you couldn't tell already. 😂

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    1. The "will count as banners" category only includes the campfire for the Trolls (with their army bonus) and three heroes (Bill the Pony, Sid Briarthorn, and Amdur). It's a pretty exclusive group and frankly could easily be rolled into the category of "count as being in range of a banner". The fact that there's a distinction has always seemed odd to me since it's such a subset of heroes.

      I don't mind the "specific models" clarification that much - again, it doesn't affect a lot of models - but we had a debate years ago about whether someone like Amdur or Aragorn should count for banner VPs in certain scenarios and I think I'm with you on this . . . they should.

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  3. Given a Barad dur army with sauron at 650 points, would a banner and ~20 models be better than no banner and ~25 models? At what points do the extra models make up for the lost combat prowess and potential banner points? I feel the rerolls and points for scenarios pretty much always makes up for it in the long run if you have >~15 models, but I could be wrong in that thought.

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    1. I think it's worth it (admittedly, as Tiberius notes, I've been biased since 2010, :P ), and here's why:

      1) You don't want Sauron to flub his roll to win a duel, because he's basically the only power piece you have (yes, you have the Witch-King as a choice, but not in a 650pt list), and you need him to be doing work.

      2) The only models you can get in large numbers for 25pts are low Fight Value, low Defense orcs, and they won't last long if you can't take advantage of your opponent rolling below a 4 high. And banners help you do that. But also...

      3) If you use a semi-circle formation, with your models being c. 3" out from the banner in a semicircle, you can easily get 7 fights in range of the banner. So if we add c. 5 models to our force, at that price point, they only have 1 attack each, and they don't have spears. Whereas we're effectively adding 7 spearmen that you can't charge and pull out of the fight (as we're rerolling a dice, which is much akin to adding another dice to replace the lowest rolling dice) to the force. So you're actually getting more dueling power out of the banner than you are out of the extra guys.

      And that assumes you're going for the absolute cheapest orcs possible: the gap gets larger if you add 2 warg riders (only 4 dice in melee, and that assumes they're both charging, and charging infantry), 2 Black Numenoreans (only 2 dice unless you shield, in which case you're not wounding anyone), or 3-4 orcs with gear (which is more likely what you'd add). And between Sauron casting Chill Soul and cleaving through the enemy, you'll bring the opponent closer to your model count with time, unless you're being fought by a dedicated horde army like Goblin Town, Shire, Sharkey's Rogues, or goblin-heavy Moria.

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    2. After this round of Back to Basics articles are done, we'll be doing a bunch of Nemesis articles - and as you'll see, anytime I make a list with Sauron, it has a banner. Always.

      Besides the reasons Centaur mentioned, being able to tuck your banner in a corner during scenarios that give them VPs - and not counting as broken while Sauron is healthy - means you can get quartered and gain VPs for the banner while not giving up VPs for breaking (or having the banner run away).

      If you're running Orc heavy, 650 is also a points level where you will probably bust Sauron's warband limit and need to get another hero - and if you assume that you have a mix of just Orc Warriors and Orc Trackers, you will likely spend 136-144 on 24 of them. With about 540pts spent on them, a mounted Orc Captain or a generic Ringwraith on foot will run you 60-80pts more, which means you have room for a banner and maybe a few guys (or upgrade some Orcs to Black Nums/Warg Riders).

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    3. Ok, that is kind of what I thought, thanks for the comments! Super helpful information to think about.

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  4. I actually think banners are generally a bad investment. The basic 3" warrior banner just feels very expensive, and if not for the scenario VPs I think you'd rarely see them. Obviously there are some key exceptions to that:
    1) 6" banners are very good. (Eg: dunland LL)
    2) Hero Banners are also excellent, which is helped by them usually being 6", and hugely undercosted. (Eg: Suladan, Boramir, King's Champion Heralds, etc)
    3) Armies that can't take spear supports kind of need a banner. (Eg: Khazad Dum, Hobbits)
    4) Smaller elite armies benefit the most from a 'basic' banner. (Eg: Any elves)
    5) Armies that rely on a single big hero to do the heavy lifting. (Eg: Helm, Sauron, Elendil, etc)
    6) You know the scenarios ahead of time, and there's multiple scenarios with banner points.

    Other than these situations, I'd just not bother, and grab 3-5 extra models.

    Here's my solution: During army creation, every army gets a free basic warrior banner (could be a banner-like object in the case of stuff like Moria/Hobbits). The reason I like this, is that you could then make the banner into a true secondary objective much like the leader wound/kill VPs, and break VPs.

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    1. While I will never try to convince an opponent to take a banner - and there's a guy in our group who brings Rohan a lot who never brings a banner - lists with expensive troops and high FV (5+) have insanely good odds of winning fights if they're rolling 3 dice (2 attacks with a reroll on the lowest). There's a math post I did that said that to have a better than 50% chance of winning the fight with a lower FV, you need 8 dice in the fight. A tightly packed Elven battle line can actually get 9 fights within range of a 3" banner (because of the difference between 1" and 25mm), which means there are likely 6-7 fights in that area that you win - which is really good. It's also only costing you ~2 Elves or one of their cavalry/super elite units. For other factions, I can understand skipping a banner - especially if the points level is low - but even then, having a reroll when your opponent flubs is really handy.

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    2. If you're interested in the article, it's here: https://tellmeatalegreatorsmall.blogspot.com/2023/04/five-easy-math-stats-for-mesbg.html.

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    3. Im sorry but if you say 1"does not equal 25mm (which technically it does not) you also allow shenanigans like infantry models hiding inside Tom Bombadils control zone. I think they outruled that?

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    4. It's different - you're measuring a radius of coverage and the coverage will go beyond into fights four fights over if you have the rear rank all touching (and possibly curved backwards a bit), it will go well into the fourth fight to the right or left. It sounds shenanigany on paper, but seeing it on the table, it isn't.

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