Good morning gamers,
2022 is almost over and with the first season of The Rings of Power complete, we thought it would be great to have a Last Alliance Legion (and a fitting rival Legion) to lead us into Christmas. With a lot of chatter about a Last Alliance supplement coming out in the coming months (oh please let those new Rivendell sculpts not be a ruse), this is intended to be a stop gap before new content hits the shelves (however long that wait lasts). Let's check out the Legion!
Why Make This Legion?
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Since the current rules set dropped, I have loved Last Alliance lists (though I have always loved the prologue scene from the Fellowship of the Ring film and have collected the models for it for a while) - Numenor and Rivendell have some of the punchiest heroes that the Forces of Good have to offer and while their warrior selection is limited, the options the units have are great. So since an alliance between these two factions is already great, how do we make the Legion worth taking while not invalidating an allied list?
I wrote an article earlier in the year about the difficulties with building Last Alliance lists. These issues were:
- Having to choose how many big heroes to include;
- Fitting in tactical heroes is hard when the point levels are low;
- Balancing your mix of D4-5 Men and D5-6 Elves; and
- Getting mounts in your list is hard.
I wanted to solve all of these without having an oppressive Legion. Fixing some of them would be easy: make both warrior choices good so you don't feel like you're settling, make all of the heroes valuable, and get those tactical benefits available at any points level. How do we do this? Let's find out!
Legion Design
First off, we're embracing the way the armies are displayed in the films and taking away the horses. Yes, we're going all-infantry with this force - something you'd never do if you were allying Numenor and Rivendell together. In trade, the named heroes in the list (both men and Elves) gain the bonus attack and knock down rules of cavalry when they charge (similar to what Shagrat's Shield of Cirith Ungol does - only with the Attack boost included).
Second, we've included almost all of the Firstborn Elves available across the Lord of the Rings line - this includes Gil-Galad and Elrond (staples of Last Alliance lists), but we also included Glorfindel, Gildor Inglorion, Erestor, Celeborn, and Galadriel, Lady of Light (who can take armor - again). While the lists in this article won't delve too deeply into these other heroes, you can certainly take them and they will be awesome!
For those who are wondering what happened to Cirdan, I decided not to have "retirement Cirdan" in the list - modifying the profile to something younger was a lot of work and the profile I eventually landed on was similar to a High Elf Captain, so I decided to add a rule that made your first High Elf Captain Cirdan and granted him some of his rules (free Will, Heroic Channelling, Terror, and his spells) and some Will points for free.
Similarly, I didn't want to create a profile for Anarion that might be invalidated by an official profile in the future. So, I decided to give the first Captain of Numenor an extra Might point, S5, and Heroic Defense and call him Anarion. What I love about these changes for Cirdan and Anarion is that it's hard to include generic Captains in these lists without feeling like your leaving something better on the table - not so with this method!
With the heroes out of the way, I wanted to make the High Elf Warriors and Warriors of Numenor able to do two things that they do in the films: the volleys of arrows from the Numenoreans and this for the Elves:
For the Numenoreans, I drudged up an old rule: volley fire. Your Numenoreans can choose to move and shoot as normal or stand and shoot with an extended range but hitting on a 6 only. For the Elves, I wanted them to be able to two-hand without penalties, but wanted positioning and planning to be part of that. So, Elves within 1" of a Numenor model or within 3" of an Elf hero get to two-hand without penalties. This gives the opponent the ability to deny the bonus by killing someone and requires careful positioning to make it work reliably turn after turn.
Exemplar Lists
Our first list is a 500-point list with a big Numenor hero (Elendil) and a High Elf Captain (Cirdan). We have March as well as Cirdan's support spells, which are awesome - and 26 models (and we got a volley team and an Elven windmill team). No banner, but something had to give:
- Elendil, High King of Gondor and Arnor [ARMY LEADER]
- 6 Warriors of Numenor with shields
- 4 Warriors of Numenor with bows
- 4 Warriors of Numenor with bows and spears
- High Elf Captain/Cirdan with shield
- 5 High Elf Warriors with shields
- 5 High Elf Warriors with shields and spears
On the flip side, you can run Gil-Galad and a Captain of Numenor/Anarion to save some cash on the heroes to get a banner and some King's Guard (27 total models):
- Gil-Galad [ARMY LEADER]
- 7 King's Guard
- 8 King's Guard with spears
- 1 King's Guard with spear and banner
- Captain of Numenor/Anarion with shield
- 9 Warriors of Numenor with bows
As we bring the points level up to 700pts, we can add in a third hero - my go-to list of heroes is usually Elrond, a Captain, Cirdan, and Isildur, but since the Captain can be Cirdan, we can get the same capabilities with only three heroes (and 34 models - golly, I love this Legion):
- Elrond, Master of Rivendell with heavy armor [ARMY LEADER]
- 5 High Elf Warriors
- 5 High Elf Warriors with spears
- 1 High Elf Warrior with spear and banner
- Isildur
- 5 Warriors of Numenor with bows
- 5 Warriors of Numenor with bows and spears
- High Elf Captain/Cirdan with shield
- 5 High Elf Warriors
- 5 High Elf Warriors with spears
- Elendil, High King of Gondor and Arnor [ARMY LEADER?]
- 8 Warriors of Numenor with shields
- 9 Warriors of Numenor with bows and spears
- Gil-Galad, High King of the Elves [ARMY LEADER?]
- 7 King's Guard
- 7 King's Guard with spears
- 1 King's Guard with spear and banner
- Galadriel, Lady of Light with armor [ARMY LEADER?]
- 6 High Elf Warriors
- 6 High Elf Warriors with shields and spears
- 1 High Elf Warrior with shield, spear, and banner
- Isildur [ARMY LEADER?]
- 12 Warriors of Numenor with bows
- 1 Warrior of Numenor with shield and spear
- High Elf Captain/Cirdan with shield
- 4 High Elf Warriors
- 5 High Elf Warriors with shields and spears
Conclusion
If you like this and want to try it out, check out the rules, take it for a spin, and let us know how it goes! Next time, we're showcasing a Legion with the big man himself, Sauron. Against such impressive heroes as we saw in this Legion, we need something truly formidable to challenge them. Find out our thoughts on what a Barad-Dur Legion should look like - and until then, happy hobbying!
although JRR Tolkien did not say that Galadriel or Celeborn participated in the Last Alliance (nor specifies they did not), they definitely DID NOT lead the army of Lorien during that war. Lorien troops were led by Amdir, Sindarin elf king (so one can assume that Galadriel and Celeborn were not present there, as they should be leaders then, concerning their status). Moreover, Galadriel was on the western shores of Middle-earth and unable to participate in the War of the Last Alliance, what "Unfinished Tales of Numenor and Middle-earth" describe. So, I would argue about their place in this LL (less on the participation of Celeborn - Tolkien's works are even more mum about him at that time), especially that generally LLs limit the access to many heroes. But fleshed out roles of Anarion and "young" Cirdan appeal much more to me
ReplyDeleteI must confess, I haven't read the unfinished tales in many, many years. If there's a passage you can direct me to, I could certainly cut her from the list. My goal was to grab all the Firstborn Elves, so she made the cut.
Deletejust to be clear, it was not my intention to critique the choice of characters for this LL (as LLs generally have certain reasoning behind them) :) Just my thoughts about the theme. There is a good bit of job you are doing here. The chapter of UTs i was referring to is entitled "The History of Galadriel and Celeborn" - in my English edition the info (although vague) is between pages 172-179. It seems that in the second half of the Second Age, after being given the ring Nenya, often stayed by the sea (Belfalas) or travelled between Lindon, Imladris, Lorien and Belfalas; Celeborn is more often mentioned as a participant/leader of some battles against Sauron. Here are some quotes [long - beware!] - the bolding is mine: "(...) that was at some time between 1350 and 1400 of the Second Age. Galadriel thereupon left Eregion and passed through Khazad-dûm to Lórinand (...) about the year 1500, after the Mírdain had begun the making of the Rings of Power. (...) It was at that time that she received Nenya, the White Ring, from Celebrimbor, and by its power the realm of Lórinand was strengthened and made beautiful; but its power upon her was great also and unforseen, for it increased her latent desire for the Sea and for return into the West, so that her joy in Middle-earth was diminished. (...) the invasion of Eriador in the year 1695. When (...) Celeborn (...) could not return to Eregion, for Sauron's host was far greater than theirs, great enough both to hold them off and closely to invest Eregion. (...) p. 174
Delete(...) In its concluding passage the narrative returns to Galadriel, telling that the sea-longing grew so strong in her that (though she deemed it her duty to remain in Middle-earth while Sauron was still unconquered) she determined to leave Lórinand and to dwell near the sea. She committed Lórinand to Amroth, and passing again through Moria with Celebrían she came to Imladris, seeking Celeborn. There (it seems) she found him, and there they dwelt together for a long time; and it was then that Elrond first saw Celebrían, and loved her (...) But at some later time [there is no indication of the date] Galadriel and Celeborn together with Celebrían departed from Imladris and went to the little-inhabited lands between the mouth of the Gwathló and Ethir Anduin. There they dwelt in Belfalas, at the place that was afterwards called Dol Amroth; there Amroth their son at times visited them, and their company was swelled by Nandorin Elves from Lórinand. It was not until far on in the Third Age, when Amroth was lost and Lórinand was in peril, that Galadriel returned there, in the year 1981 [of SA]. p. 176
(...) after the destruction of Eregion by Sauron in the year 1697 of the Second Age. (...) Celeborn went at first to Lórien and fortified it against any further attempts of Sauron to cross the Anduin. When however Sauron withdrew to Mordor, and was (as reported) wholly concerned with conquests in the East, Celeborn rejoined Galadriel in Lindon. (...) after Eregion's fall (...) it is said explicitly that they both at that time "passed through Moria with a considerable following of Noldorin exiles and dwelt for many years in Lórien." (...) p. 178
To Lórien Celeborn and Galadriel returned twice before the Last Alliance and the end of the Second Age; and in the Third Age, when the shadow of Sauron's recovery arose, they dwelt there again for a long time. (...) Nevertheless, it was not until the disaster in Moria [ca. 1980 TA], when by means is beyond the foresight of Galadriel Sauron's power actually crossed the Anduin and Lórien was in great peril, its king lost, its people fleeing and likely to leave it deserted to likely occupied by Orcs, that Galadriel and Celeborn took up their permanent abode in Lórien, and its government.” p.179
That's some serious scholarship - thanks for dropping the note! I would rather err on what's consistent with the written works of Tolkien than what we see on the screen (be it the films or a certain TV show), so I will definitely look into this - thanks for finding it!
DeleteLoving your ideas :)
ReplyDeleteNot Sure If Galadriel fits in everything Else is Spot on.
Lets Hope GW will do even more ;)
I can't wait to see what they do too!
DeleteGonna start by saying that this looks absolutely awesome, and I'm definitely going to try it out if I get a chance this week. Just dripping with flavour, super cool.
ReplyDeleteIn saying that, I think there are some definite balance risks. Giving all the combat heroes the best bits of being mounted for free, in ways that can't be taken away, is extremely powerful in itself, and takes away a lot of the downside of the Legion. I think a hero with this rule but no option for a horse is about equally as good as that hero mounted (cheaper and can't lose their charge bonuses, but somewhat less mobility), so the only thing you're giving up for all the rest of the bonuses is access to Rivendell Knights. They're a legitimate loss, but expensive enough that not every Last Alliance list was running them anyway.
I'd also note that this rule is very scary for the heroes like Galadriel and Celeborn who are balanced around being stuck on foot normally. As written this is balanced by them not being able to lead warriors (I don't think either has the Rivendell keyword), but given that a sample list shows them leading troops I imagine this is just an error. Assuming it's fixed, then I'd worry about Galadriel in particular being a little too appealing, given that her two normal downsides (no warrior slots and no mount option) have been handily addressed here. Alternatively, as other commenters have pointed out, maybe just leave the Lothlorien duo at home. LoL has been in enough lists for one edition already!
In trade for the missing Knights, you get some flavourful but pretty cracked bonuses. I'll start with the heroes: Cirdan is bonkers here. Relative to ordinary Cirdan (who is inarguably one of the strongest models in the game) you gain a very solid combat profile, vastly increased durability, March, twice as many warband slots and an extra Might, and you go down 5 points! That's a lot of buffs, and I think Cirdan really doesn't need them at all. If you're going down the Young Cirdan route (and you should, I think it's super cool), I'd definitely up the points cost. Maybe something like 'one Elf Captain in your force can be upgraded to Cirdan for x points, gaining...' Not sure on the best points value here, but you could probably do at least 50. Compare what you're getting here to Thranduil's Circlet (again, a fairly underpriced piece of wargear) and I think you can easily justify a large hike.
Anarion, on the other hand, I have no problems with. He's very good value, but much less concerning than Cirdan. If anything, I'd be inclined to include him in the cavalry bonus club and up his points in the same way I suggested for Cirdan. That would make him a little more comparable to his brother, which would be nice. Defence instead of Strike is also a great call; this Legion definitely isn't short of beatsticks if it really wants them!
The bonuses to Numenoreans while near a hero or an Elf are great, very thematic and fun. No complaints there, they're perfect in my opinion. I'm also fine with the slightly more limited Rivendell Army bonus sneaking in, it's a good way to represent that scene.
DeleteWhere things get a little scary is the free two-handing. This is super, super strong, and I think is likely too good. It's a somewhat worse version of Thandruil's army bonus, except that it can apply to your whole frontline quite easily. And again, Thandruil's buff is phenomenally strong and almost singlehandedly makes that faction as good as they are. This buff also catches Glorfindel, Cirdan, Elrond and Celeborn as long as they're near a hero or Numenorean, which may be unintentional; it makes those characters vastly more concerning, and also really decreases the incentive to take Gil-Galad. F9 and King's Guard are obviously great, but suddenly a lot less appealing once Aiglos is no longer unique. I think this rule also really disincentives you from investing points into Numenor: 12 spearmen and Anarion will be plenty to trigger your buffs, and the Elven heroes and warriors will do basically everything better than their Numenorean equivalents. Finally, it's a little unclear whether this allows Elves to use a shield at the same time as two-handing. If so, then it's even more powerful than I thought, and definitely needs some changes.
I think the clear fix here is to replace this rule with the broadsword special rule that Lamedon Clansmen get. That's still a powerful rule and fits the thematic nature of the moment you're going for, but it's nowhere near as potentially-oppressive. It's hopefully still strong enough to incentivise Elves without shields (which is something your current rules do exceptionally well, so kudos there), while not tipping over into too strong. Alternatively, you could just make it a once-per-game thing, or maybe only while being charged and touching two other Elves; something to represent that this is a formation of Elves moving in unison, not necessarily a consistent edge in a broken-up melee.
In any case, this is a super fun Legion, and I think I'm definitely going to give it a try when I get a chance. Maybe against the next one you're hinting at if it's out in time haha!
Love the thoughts as always. I thought I had changed the army rule to say Elves lead Elves, versus Rivendell leads Rivendell - will update tomorrow. Cirdan's cost probably does need to go up - though like the Defenders of Erebor Legion, there are so many good heroes in this list that even if they were all broken, you'd be hard pressed to get many in. That said, Cirdan's getting+3 stats, +2 rules, and +4 spells . . . a price hike does seem in order, but at 130pts, I think his competition with Anarion makes him a difficult March choice, while he's also encroaching on the lower of the big heroes (Celeborn and Galadriel) and is nowhere near their level in combat. Will probably settle for 20-30, need to think about it.
DeleteAs for the two-handing, no, you won't get a benefit from a shield if you two-hand, which was to incentivise taking shieldless Elves (you know, because we have them). Having to be within 1" of a friend can make for a long battle line benefitting (which again, was kind of the idea), but I agree could be too strong. Numenoreans aren't resilient (D4-5), so like Dale and the Iron Hills, if you do a 5:1 ratio of Numenor to Rivendell (or even a 2:1 ratio), you could find pockets of your battle line without their buffs. A choice that might fix this might be that "friendly Elves without shields and within . . . " - this would make the Elves D5, more vulnerable, and unable to switch to shielding if they want to survive.
And the inclusion of the heroes was intentional too - I think Gil-Galad still keeps a lot of his real estate value even if others are getting +1 To Wounds that are dependent on D4-5 escorts. Taming down their cav rules might require going with the knock-down only ala Shagrat, but I think the reduced mobility shouldn't be underestimated. If you halo these guys, they won't be getting their points back - and they don't really have an answer for that (except March).
And if you hold your game until Thursday, you'll have a thematic opponent. ;-)
DeleteI definitely agree that Cirdan is nowhere near Celeborn or Galadriel in combat, but that spellcasting is really beyond what either can do in my mind. Galadriel has more Will for casting, but Aura of Dismay and Blinding Light are two of the best powers in the game (maybe the two best? Not sure), while Galadriel's list is largely specific counters that don't always come up. You do make the compelling point though that all of the heroes in this Legion are amazing, so maybe 50 is a little high. I was comparing it to an Elf Captain and Cirdan together in a normal list, which is 155 and realistically doing almost exactly the same thing as Cridan alone in this Legion (one more Might and model, 6 extra warband slots and more Wounds/Fate seems fair for 25 points, given that base Cirdan is absolutely useless in a fight). But I guess all of your hero options are a lot better value here than normal, so I shouldn't be comparing too much to models in the normal list.
DeleteI definitely like the incentivisation of shieldless Elves, it's a really elegant way of doing it. I like the idea of limiting it more strictly to shieldless Elves, but I'm not sure it really fixes the problem. You'd just end up running mostly Elven archers backed by Numenorean spearmen, with a few more Elf swordsmen backed by spears to make the bowcount work. Then you've got a F5/S5 frontline backed by S4 spears that reroll 1's to wound, which is just hideously strong. It's a limitation, but I don't think it really does much.
I think part of the issue is that unlike the Defenders of Erebor LL, there's no real sacrifice to putting Numenoreans all throughout your battleline as spear supports. They're higher Strength than your Elven spears, so they're probably the better choice anyway. In any case, I imagine that the times when you won't either have a Numenorean within 1" or a hero within 3" will be pretty rare.
I do see your point on haloing, but I think that's a less viable tactic against a faction like this with a strong infantry line and great shooting. You almost certainly outshoot the enemy so they have to fight you somewhere, they're not gonna get any super profitable trades into your warriors, and your battlelines are likely small enough that one foot hero can cover most of your force in their protective halo. It's not like a Gundabad Troll where if they're in the centre you just hit the other flank and they'll never make it over; if you try that here then they can likely just move their own models out of the way to counter-charge you. You can try and kite them I guess, but kiting Elven bows with Blinding Light seems optimistic for most lists. I've never really found haloing to work well for me against anything smaller than a Troll, but that may just be that I haven't practiced it enough.
Also, a quick writeup on my first test game. I decided to run Cirdan (because I think he's bonkers), Celeborn (because I wanted to test the free +1 to wound, although Galadriel is likely better) and Anarion (because I was playing at 600 and needed a cheap Numenorean hero). I randomly chose from a bunch of armies and ended up facing Angmar with Gulavhar and the WK, and vetoes left me on Capture and Control.
DeleteIt ended up not being the best test game for the heroes, because the standard Angmar tricks meant things went very badly for them very fast. Cirdan died turn 1, then Celeborn turn 2, then Anarion turn 3; a couple failed Resist rolls against the WK is all you need when Gulavhar is around! In saying that, the warriors were absolutely brutal. They killed 15 Orcs in the first two turns, which absolutely astonished me. Angmar was able to pull it back once all the heroes were dead and Gulavhar could rampage freely, but the Last Alliance nearly won it through sheer killing power of their warriors.
Takeaways from the game: not much of use gained about the heroes, other than that I really wished I had LoL. Aside from that, it's not really saying much to say they still die to Gulavhar when things go wrong! The warriors felt pretty overtuned though: no game in which Gulavhar kills ~400 points worth of stuff should feel this close. If the 340 points of Angmar heroes had taken even one turn longer to kill the 290 point of Last Alliance heroes, the Orcs would have been cleared right off the board. There were also, interestingly, no points when an Elf or Numenorean wasn't getting their wounding bonuses for having a friend nearby, which implies the restrictions there aren't doing a heap in practice.
Definitely keen to do another practice game, and hopefully get to actually use the heroes this time haha
Was your mix of Numenor to Elves 1:2 basically? Elves and Numenor tend to do well against D5 foes normally, but I imagine that with the +1 To Wound, they'd absolutely shred them. That being said, if the Angmar army ran into a double rank of Dale troops, a double line of Abrakhans, or a line of Hearthguard they'd get diced up too - so maybe it's to be expected?
DeleteThe solution might actually be found in my formations article I did on these guys a while back: avoid the penalty if you're in range of a banner. Since none of the heroes come with one, it would put a tax on your army that you don't have previously - though I fear that if paired with having to be unshielded it won't be seen as worth it?
Or perhaps this gets downgraded to a broadsword rule like you mentioned initially. In my experience, a high-Fight model that two-hands with an unmodified supporting die that can reroll is going to win a lot of the time and kill a lot of the time, so I don't know that even that downgrade would be enough.
Pretty close to 1:1, about 12 Numenoreans to 16 Elves I believe. It was honestly pretty crazy watching them go through the Orcs. Not so much because they killed them (because as you say, you'd expect that for most battlelines) but it just happened so fast. Casualty comparisons from the first two turns, ignoring Gulavhar, were two Elves to 15 Orcs. Yikes.
DeleteI like the banner option, it seems like a good compromise. If anything, it might lead to people trying to fit in a second banner, which is probably fine. If only one banner was taken then I imagine most frontline Elves would go back to shields, with six or seven around the banner going without (likely as just archers).
I think the broadsword rule would be a good option personally. Compared to the Numenorean buff (a small increase to wounding odds always), you're gaining a larger buff to wound rolls at the expense of a decreased chance of winning the fight (albeit a much smaller one than normal). I think that it strikes a good balance between 'we are the Hearthguard now' and 'there is no reason to use this rule'. Lots of other ways you could go with it, very much your call there, my view is mostly that the current state of play is likely a bit much
Google account is being weird on this device, but to clarify the above anonymous post is from me, Sharbie
DeleteYeah, could tell it was you from your writing style. :) Here are my thoughts right now for the change log - really appreciate everyone's input!
DeleteChange Log - Version 1.1:
Galadriel, Lady of Light has been removed from the Legion (because she probably wasn’t fighting in Mordor) - see note above, sorry to see her go, whatever.
The first High Elf Captain and the first Captain of Numenor may be upgraded to Cirdan for 25pts and Anarion for 15pts respectively (instead of becoming these heroes for free) - 25pts for Cirdan covers the +2 Will, the +2 special rules, and the addition of spells, while the 15pts gets Anarion +2 stat improvements, +1 Might, and Heroic Defense. Both still seems worth taking to me (though the increase in price makes them a bit more cost-competitive with heroes like Erestor (slightly cheaper) and Isildur (slightly more expensive). I do feel like Gildor needs something though . . . maybe the option for heavy armor. :P
Elf models ignore the penalty for being two-handed when they get a natural 6 on their Dueling rolls and are within 1” of a friendly Numenor model OR 3” of a friendly Elf hero (instead of ignoring the two-handed penalty completely) - basically becomes the broadsword, thought about changing it to being near a banner/losing spear-supports, but didn't want to lose the synergy with Numenor models (else why take them?).
Cirdan and Anarion were added to the list of models who gain the Extra Attack and Knock Down rules for cavalry, while Galadriel was removed from the list - we're paying extra for these guys, they might as well get these rules. Galadriel's not in the list anymore, so she's been removed.
The Extra Attack and Knock Down rules gained by the named heroes can be removed in the same way that cavalry lose these rules (e.g. charging into cavalry models, being charged by cavalry models/Monstrous Charge models with higher Strength, or by being Transfixed/Immobilized) - I do think that these heroes will get critiqued for being too expensive if they're not killing stuff, so the Knock Down was always gonna stay (and there's precedent for infantry getting Knock Down). I also wanted them to keep their bonus attack, but wanted there to be a clear way to turn it off too. Ergo, it's been clarified that, though they're infantry, they can have their cavalry bonuses turned off just like everyone else who's cavalry.
Curious what everyone thinks!
Sharbie again:
DeleteBroadly agree with all of those changes, think they put the Legion in a good spot overall. I do think Círdan should go up a little more if he's getting the cavalry bonuses (they're probably worth at least ten points by themselves, really), but otherwise I reckon this fixes all the problems I identified from the first round. LoL will be a sad loss, but realistically she always made things hard to balance. Great stuff!
Fantastic legion - been a pleasure chatting with you and seeing you put it together over the past few months, :) A quick note on the cavalry special rule thing: what if instead of getting the knock down you get +1 Strength (much like Rohan)? This would increase the potency of the hero (which is something), but it wouldn't double your wounding dice, so it's still less substantial than a horse. Thoughts?
ReplyDeleteThat might work too - I am wondering if the bonus attack is all that really needs go through. If everyone is okay with Shagrat having it at just over 100pts, I don't see why putting it on a few more (expensive) people would be a problem.
DeleteWell maybe because said "more (expensive) people" are already really strong. ;) Full comments in another post.
DeleteHa - that's fair. :-)
DeleteI think taking away Calvary is great for theme. I can’t imagine Calvary moving too greatly in that place, but maybe there is evidence for them. Also helps with people not having models for them.
ReplyDeleteOther LL find ways without cav so I think the LA LL could do fine without it too.
I thought so too - it's also a key difference between a historical alliance option (and doesn't invalidate it . . . especially if the charge bonus stuff gets knocked back a peg).
DeleteThere are some great ideas in here! I love the theme, and I really appreciate the creativity! That said, of course, somebody has to play the devil’s advocate. 😉
ReplyDeleteSo, from my perspective, most Legendary Legions [LL’s] are balanced through some mechanism. For instance: Omitting certain troops or rules, requiring minimum purchases which may have a negative impact, etc. This legion doesn’t really have that to the extent it needs. Additionally, most legions (though I don’t have all the books nor have memorized them by heart) have a somewhat limited number of rules. As a long time Easterling player and because it is now considered one of the strongest legions, I’ll use the Host of the Dragon Emperor [HoDE] for an example. Note also, I am looking at the “full potential” of both legions, and not the “most likely usage” as such variables are nearly infinite.
HoDE gets three special rules, one of which is the existing army bonus. The other two affect all hero models (a single reroll to win) and incentivize bringing Black Dragons by making the upgrade free. The tradeoff is excluding the heroes of Amdur and Khamul, and limiting the free Black Dragons to the Dragon Emperor and Dragon Knights warbands.
Contrast that with this Last Alliance [LA] list. You have five special rules which are actually six to eight special rules (depending how you read them, with one of them being the normal army bonus) and eight free upgrades to already potent heroes without any real drawbacks. Yes, some of the rules are proximity based (which I happen to oppose), and yes there are no mounts which is already a thing for some factions so… big whoop considering how powerful the heroes are. 😉
Rules I think are great:
Anárion: Great idea for a figure missing from the game and fits the theme well. If the special rules ended with the top five, I think he could be taken for free instead of the +15 in the change log.
Cirdan: Another great idea with the points added, I don’t think he should be free in any circumstance.
Volley Fire: Great throwback to yesteryears and a fun, unique way to bring in the archery seen in the movies. 48 inch range is too powerful IMO, and I would change it to 12-30 as not needing line of sight is already strong and GW did away with it for a reason…
Keeping the Elven Army Bonus: Normal for LL’s, no issue.
Giving the Elves a way to ignore 2-H penalty: Also cool, though I would allow them battlefield wide (assuming the broadsword-type mechanic) if the rules list ended here. Since they don’t, and since the killing power only gets better, would suggest making the requirement they must be supported by a Numenor model. This creates a natural drawback for the rule in that you MUST have something in a proportional balance for it to work as opposed to a handful of strategically placed fellows or heroes.
Here I’ll put a break in and point out that would be the end of bonuses for most legions. You get cool rules, buff troops, and get some free points (or not). BUT, the rules go on! This is a problem IMO, however, for the sake of argument let’s assume its not too strong already (especially with no truly restrictive tradeoffs).
Part 2
ReplyDeleteRules I think need work:
Numenor rerolling 1’s: There is already a lot of killing power (which I understand is the point), but this type of rule is strong enough to where it is literally the army bonus for Khazad-Dum/Moria. If you want to swap this for one of the others above, then maybe, but adding it in is way too strong for my taste. The incentive to bring appropriate numbers of Numenor would be addressed by the above requirement for supporting Elves.
Extra Attack and Knockdown: This is by far the most controversial I think, and immediately turns me off to the current legion scheme. If this was the only rule, maybe. If there was a substantial cost, then maybe. But again, there are no truly restrictive tradeoffs. Sure you can point to Shagrat and say there is precedent, but the most powerful heroes in this list (which also happen to extend to the game at large) already get a reroll to wound and win the fight. Shagrat isn’t close the points cost, nor the lethality of the listed heroes (I’m not saying Shagrat isn’t strong, just not anywhere near as strong as the proposed rule). At the bare minimum, this rule grants the legion 70 free points (sans Galadriel and Celeborn). HoDE would only get that many free points by bringing a fistful of Dragon Knights which would essentially remove Brogir and Rhutabi. Yes, you won’t typically get that many heroes in, but I’m looking at the full potential+tradeoffs. AT THE BARE MINIMUM: this rule should be limited to such heroes as can have a shield AND I would say no extra attack, especially since Shagrat doesn’t get that either. Getting two extra attacks to kill upon winning a charge would (theoretically) be another five points each without considering fights where other models are involved. Furthermore, by enabling all those heroes to be “cavalry-light” you are putting enormous pressure an opponent to use might everywhere for heroic moves, which is a bonus that is intangible.
Remove Celeborn from the list: It is weird to have all the Numenor and Rivendell special rules specifically named but missing Lothlorien, especially since Galadriel is gone. I understand the lore context, but it is unsual to be included in the list for gameplay IMO.
Okay, I think I’m done, haha. ^_^ I want to reemphasize I think there are some neat ideas here and it is fitting to have a LA legion, but I think this list still needs tuning. I wasn’t even going to say anything initially for a friendly house game, but when I saw the tournament announcement (which I sadly cannot be at), I had to say something because I’d have major complaints about seeing this LL as-is in an advertised event. :p
Well, that was a lot of thoughts. :-) I hear you - and the critiques are fair. The upcoming tournament won't see these guys - or if they do show up, they won't be very oppressive - since there's a 150pt max on any hero, and with the requirement for two heroes (one Elf, one man), you won't have an army to support the mid-tier heroes you were able to bring.
DeleteThe rerolling of 1s due to proximity was borrowed from the new Defenders of Erebor LL from Defence of the North, so while yes, it can be found in Khazad-Dum, it does exist outside that list (and can be found in various other lists and Legions). Since swords are everywhere in this list, Numenor can reroll 1s without this rule if they feint, but this is intended to give them something appealing besides triggering the Elf bonuses. It may be too much to have in the Legion though . . .
While I can see the 70 free points argument, to get that bonus, you'd need to actually buy all seven models that are affected by the rule. Due to their expense and due to how good the warriors are, I don't see that happening. Realistically, this will translate into 20-40 free points depending on your points level.
DeleteTying these bonuses to a shield is an interesting idea, though Glorfindel and Elrond wouldn't be able to benefit and I fear what that does for them . . .
Final thought and by far the most controversial for me: Celeborn is staying in the list. Period. It has been a travesty that he hasn't had the wargear options or the Legion attention of other Elves, and his only champions when comparing him to other Elven heroes are die-hard Lorien fans (and even we aren't happy - something I tried to fix with another Legion). I generalized the rules to trigger on Elves for him specifically and he's staying. :-P
Lots to think about, thanks for the thoughts as always!