Pages

Monday, July 25, 2022

In Defense Of: Osgiliath Veterans

Good morning gamers,

Today is the last of the "In Defense Of" posts that I'm writing for now - we'll pop back into this series at some point to cover some other profiles that I, Centaur, and Rythbyrt have bumping around, but we've got some Legendary Legions and factions that need reviewing, so we've got to move on. :-) Today we have probably the hardest sell I've tackled yet (well, some of those Ruffian posts were pretty hard sells too): Osgiliath Veterans. This is one of those profiles that's "cool" but not viewed as particularly competitive - mostly because Minas Tirith is one of the most fleshed out lists in the game (and certainly one of the most fleshed out factions for Good) and with so many "heavy infantry" competing for a spot in your list, these guys just appear to be "bleh" relative to the rest. So today, we'll look at the counts that stand against these guys . . . and then walk through how to rethink your Minas Tirith priorities with these guys in mind.

Why NOT To Take Osgiliath Veterans

Osgiliath Veterans - such a loved-and-yet-unloved lot . . .

In this series, we've compared the profiles that need viewing against their comparable alternatives - and sometimes that list is rather long. Minas Tirith has several Infantry models available to it - each of which is supposed to do something slightly different (note that in this post I'll be assuming we're looking at vanilla Minas Tirith and that their army bonus of +1 Courage is active):
  • Warriors of Minas Tirith (hereafter "Warriors") - cheapest D7 troops with access to both banners and spears;
  • Rangers of Gondor (hereafter "Rangers") - cheap 3+ shoot value S2 bows;
  • Citadel Guard (hereafter "CitGuard") - 4+ shoot value Longbows, potentially mounted on horses;
  • Guards of the Fountain (hereafter "CourtGuard") - F4/D7 with Bodyguard; and
  • Osgiliath Veterans (hereafter "OsVets") - C5
For most competitive players, having C5 just isn't enough to warrant the existence of OsVets - especially when you have Bodyguard on not one but TWO infantry options (CitGuard and CourtGuard). A CourtGuard model might be more expensive than an OsVet, but while the army leader is still alive, their auto-passing Courage tests is a huge boost - and even if the army leader dies, C4 is almost as good as C5.

The second critique of these guys is that they don't have shieldwall. Apparently, fighting in the rubble of Osgiliath has made these guys forget how to fight in a formation - and if these guys were cheaper F4/D7 models than CourtGuard, they'd probably have a place. But alas, being "just F4/D6" would be great in most factions, but not so much in Minas Tirith.

The third critique of these guys is pretty simple: they don't excel at any of their wargear options. OsVets, Warriors, and CitGuard are pretty similar - they all have access to spears and bows of a kind and both OsVets and Warriors have access to shields. If you want a shield on your front-line infantry, why not just take a Warrior of Minas Tirith (who, for 1pt less, gets to D7/C4 instead of D6/C5)? If you back these guys up with a F4 spearman (any of the other warriors we're looking at will do the trick), then you're fine. 

Similarly, if you want a spear, you could just take a CitGuard who, for the same cost as an OsVet with a spear-only, will be -1 Courage but will have Bodyguard (neither are that necessary for a spearman to have). If you want a bow, the CitGuard gives you a S3 longbow for +1pt/model and Warriors give you the same shooting value for -1pt and -1 Courage. And this ignores the fact that Rangers for -1pt trade -1D to get a 3+ Shoot value. All told, OsVets just don't distinguish themselves with any of their gear options.

These are pretty heavy critiques indeed - and competitive players have dabbled with thoughts on how to make these guys better, ranging from the ability to ignore difficult terrain to gaining Hatred (Mordor). Any improvement to this profile would be welcome (personally I'd have them to reroll a D6 in their fight if they were near Boromir or Faramir, which would stack with a banner - or the Hatred thing), but honestly, I think these guys are actually worth taking as-is. To see why, we have to rethink the way Minas Tirith works and break down the comparison a bit . . .

Why TO Take Osgiliath Veterans

OsVets don't look like they're worth the points because they pay for extra Courage (which may be unnecessary) - but let's look at the five different configurations you can reasonably run with Osgiliath Veterans to see how they compare to the various Minas Tirith infantry options. Let's begin with warriors who can take shields and NOT spears:

Sword and Shield: OsVets vs. WoMT

As you can see above, there are only two warrior types that have "swords and boards" - Osgiliath Veterans (9pts/model) and Warriors of Minas Tirith (8pts/model). Thanks to "Loyal to the Captains" and "Shieldwall," The OsVets can be +1 FV over the Warriors of Minas Tirith, while the Warriors of Minas Tirith have +1 Defense. For +1pt/model, you're getting +1 Courage if Faramir or Boromir is nearby - and this leads us to our first principle for using these guys:

If you don't want spears in your front rank, if you're taking Boromir and/or Faramir, and you think you'll be facing a Terror army, you should take Osgiliath Veterans.

Let's look now at the warrior options that can take spears WITHOUT shields:

Spear: OsVets vs. CitGuard vs. CourtGuard

I'll make this simple: OsVets can be F4 just like CitGuard and CourtGuard without shields, but they get +1 Courage in trade for Bodyguard - and as I've already mentioned, this is kind of a wash. The +1pt you pay for CourtGuard gets you +1 Defense and the Bodyguard will often be more helpful than the +1C. We see a similar issue when we look at the models that can take spears AND shields:

Spear and Shield: OsVets vs. WoMT vs. CourtGuard 

For 1pt less per model, you can get Warriors who are +1 Defense, -1 FV, and -1 Courage - but again, the Courage boost in the second rank isn't really that necessary. Warriors backing up other Warriors will be a F3 shieldwall (unless Boromir's banner is flying nearby), but everyone will be D7 and that will be tough to crack. Alternatively, CourtGuard cost 1pt more per model and they get +1 Defense, -1 Courage, and Bodyguard - which, again, probably slants in favor of the CourtGuard. This leads to our second principle for using these guys:

Don't take Osgiliath Veterans with spears - there are better options.

To further support this principle, let's look at the warriors who can take both spears and bows:

Spear and Bow: OsVets vs. WoMT vs. Rangers

For 1pt less per model than an OsVet with spear and bow, you can get a Ranger with spear and bow - and you'll get -1 Defense and -1 Courage, but you'll also get a 3+ shoot value with your bow. If you want a good shooting model, these guys are much better options (unless D5 archers appeal to you). For the same cost as an OsVet with spear and bow, you can get a Warrior with spear, bow, and shield - the shield will trigger Shieldwall if you have a block of these guys standing together and they'll have +1 Defense, -1 Fight Value, and -1 Courage relative to the OsVet. Embedded in a battle line, you probably want the Warrior or the Ranger instead of the OsVet - he's not doing much for you.

Our last group for comparison are the warriors who can only take bows - and here we have four models to compare:

Bow: OsVets vs. WoMT vs. CitGuard vs. Rangers

The OsVet is 1pt more expensive than both Warriors with bows only and Rangers - and the Ranger is -1 Defense and -1 Courage with a 3+ Shoot value. If operating alone and away from Faramir or Boromir, an OsVet's C5 is actually quite useful for sticking around when your army breaks (as is the upgrade to D5 if your opponent has S2/S4 archery to return his fire). Warriors with bows aren't getting the benefit from Shieldwall, so they get -1 Fight Value and -1 Courage for -1pt per model - not really a good alternative to OsVets.

It's when you compare OsVets with bows to CitGuard with longbows that things get interesting: the CitGuard costs 10pts/model (+1pt) and gets a S3 ranged weapon instead of a S2 ranged weapon and is -1 Courage with Bodyguard. If you want someone to stick around, CitGuard appear to be better than an OsVet, which leads us to our third principle:

If you can take a Citadel Guard with a longbow or an Osgiliath Veteran with a bow, take the Citadel Guard.

"Wait," I hear you say, "Isn't this the part where you're supposed to defend Osgiliath Veterans? Why are you critiquing them right now?" Well, we need to iron out that there are only two good cases for taking OsVets: first, if you don't have access to Citadel Guard and need someone to hold an objective on their own (like in the Rangers of Ithilien LL), take an OsVet with a bow. Second, if you don't want spears in the front rank, take an OsVet with shield. In these two contexts (bowmen holding objectives and front-rank infantry), let's look at why OsVets are good.

Let's start with this: Courage 5 is a good stat - most warriors can't get there (unless they're Elves or unless there's a war horn present) and C5 is reliable at passing most Courage tests. If you read our article ages ago on Gandalf the White in Minas Tirith lists, you know that a C5 model has an 83% chance of passing a Terror check on two dice and a 63% chance of passing a Terror check on three dice and dropping the highest. When you look at charging a terror-causing model that has Harbinger of Evil active as well, you have a 72% chance of passing a Terror check on two dice or a 48% chance if you have to roll three dice and drop the highest. Both of these are VERY reliable - and while not as reliable as auto-passing Courage tests with Bodyguard, if your army leader isn't alive, these probabilities are much better than the alternatives provided by the competitors of the OsVets. Bodyguard is great . . . until it disappears.

Second, having C5 troops is really good if you fear you'll be facing Blades of the Dead. With both the Return of the King LL (any Dead of Dunharrow model) and Angmar (Dead Marsh Spectres) being staples of the competitive scene, having a few models that can be thrown into these models and be wounded on 4s or 5s (instead of 3s or 4s) can keep your army going for a lot longer. With Warriors of the Dead/Dead Marsh Spectres wounding on 5s, even a double-die fight against these guys only has a 56% chance of killing them - and that's if they can win with a lower Fight Value. An OsVet isn't likely to wound the Warrior of the Dead in return (all of Minas Tirith's infantry will struggle with this - a Dead Marsh Spectre isn't so bad), but the OsVet might not die either.

Third, OsVets distinguish themselves from other front-line infantry in Minas Tirith in that they don't have to be packed together to get their benefits. Warriors of Minas Tirith need to be in Shieldwall formation to have any edge over OsVets - and while there are times when compact ranks are good, they can be devastated by area-of-effect siege weapons and can be very inflexible (4s formations are more flexible than a long line, while a schiltron formation is less flexible than a 4s formation but more resilient to enemy archery). Rangers of Gondor that back up Warriors of Minas Tirith want that D7 line intact to keep them from being shot - but having OsVets backed by someone with a spear (Warriors with spears and shields or CourtGuard are the best options) can spread out a little, expanding your battle line, and encouraging you to wrap around the enemy instead of "just smashing into them." Being F4/D6 is just fine - nothing wrong with that.

But all of this comes back to the assumption that they'll be within 6" of Boromir or Faramir - and for this to work, we need to address something: if you're running Boromir, Captain of the White Tower or Faramir, Captain of Gondor without a bow, chances are good they'll be charging in the front ranks - and your OsVet boosted Fight Value will probably trigger. If you want to save a little cash, you can run Boromir of Gondor instead of "mega Boromir" and since the requirement is that "Boromir" be present, the OsVets will still get their benefits. This gives you two key advantages: first, Boromir of Gondor gives you March, so you can run him, Faramir, and another hero (Denethor for spam, Hurin for killing power, Ingold for holding ground) instead of needing to invest at ton of points into mega-Boromir, getting Faramir, and THEN getting a March hero.

The second advantage that you get is this: if you run Boromir of Gondor on foot, you can give him an Elven Cloak and hide him from enemy archery or magic. With your OsVets wanting to hunker down behind defensive terrain too (D6 is good, but will still go down to oppressive shooting), Boromir can hunker down too - and then when you get locked in, you'll be able to capitalize on Boromir's fighting prowess in your battle line (instead of on the periphery).

Now all of this that we've said so far assumes that Faramir or Boromir is within 6" of these guys - and while you CAN spam these guys, I think they make for a nice pocket of troops, not a host of guys. Taking 4-7 OsVets with Faramir and/or Boromir gives you a nice flavor of OsVets in your army, while mixing them with Warriors or CourtGuard will allow you to slot them in against the enemies you need to.

Making It Work

To cover something we've already covered: take OsVets with shields - and basically nothing else. OsVets make for good front-line troops, especially if they have a F4 supporter so they can Feint - and they'd be much better if they had Hatred (Mordor) or something like that. Still, as the profile stands, these guys are just fine at killing things (for being Minas Tirith) but can do so more reliably against Terror-causing or Blades-of-the-Dead troops.

Second, run them in warbands led by Faramir and Boromir (or that will be near Boromir of Gondor) - this should go without saying, but as we just said, running 4-7 of these guys in these 15-model warbands gives you a solid line of C4-5, F4/D6 warriors to form your front line and protect these heroes (whether they're on foot in the battle line or mounted and protecting a flank).

Third, don't keep tight ranks with these guys. OsVets are fine at shielding the enemy - especially if the enemy is F3 or below and these guys are near Faramir or Boromir. As we talked about earlier in the year on extending your shieldwall, you can use these guys to charge into two models and shield with the higher Fight Value and have a decent chance of walking away from the fight, while your would-be spearmen work on wrapping around the enemy and trapping the models on the exterior of your opponent's battle line. This is particularly useful if you've got Boromir or Faramir on foot in the battle line, as they can crack the middle of the formation while your infantry wrap around the sides.

Here's a list at 800pts (we have NOVA on the brain right now at TMAT) that showcases OsVets alongside Denethor, Boromir of Gondor, and Faramir (and Hurin and Anborn):
  • Denethor, Steward of Gondor [ARMY LEADER]
    • 6 Warriors of Minas Tirith with shields
    • 1 Knight of Minas Tirith with shield
    • 6 Rangers of Gondor with spears
  • Faramir, Captain of Gondor on armored horse with lance, shield, and heavy armor
    • 6 Osgiliath Veterans with shields
    • 6 Guards of the Fountain Court
  • Anborn, Ranger of Ithilien
    • 1 Knight of Minas Tirith with shield
    • 5 Rangers of Gondor
  • Hurin the Tall, Warden of the Keys on horse
    • 1 Warrior of Minas Tirith with shield
    • 2 Warriors of Minas Tirith with shields and spears
    • 1 Warrior of Minas Tirith with shield, spear, and banner
    • 4 Rangers of Gondor with spears
    • 5 Osgiliath Veterans with shields
  • CONVENIENT ALLY: Boromir of Gondor with shield and Elven cloak
This army has a very impressive 49 models, most of whom are D6+, and you've got both Boromir and Faramir in your list. The OsVets are C4 (which is still pretty good, though we've talked about them being C5 in this article). The list shown above works best if Hurin and Boromir of Gondor work together - you have an extra spearman in Hurin's warband to back up Boromir and you've got Rangers to lend F4 to the OsVets so they can Feint without penalty. For those of you who think Boromir of Gondor should be mounted, you could downgrade 5 of the Guards of the Fountain Court to Warriors of Minas Tirith with shields and spears or Citadel Guard and Boromir's Elven Cloak to get a horse - but I imagine he'll be easier to keep alive from archery if he's on foot and when the enemy gets close, you can move him into the front rank. You also have a block of Warriors of Minas Tirith in Hurin's warband (including a banner, so Boromir can have a banner bonus) that can be run as a 4s formation OR you can mix them with Rangers/OsVets so you have an entire F4 battle line.

If you want the C5 on the OsVets, you can swap Boromir of Gondor, Hurin, and the banner on the Warrior of Minas Tirith for mega Boromir on horse with shield and the Banner of Minas Tirith (and if you chose to mount Boromir of Gondor on a horse, you'd get those Guards of the Fountain Court again). If you're going to take mega Boromir, you've already got 6 OsVets in what was Hurin's warband and these guys will benefit from the Banner of Minas Tirith instead of just the normal banner. With the Rangers and OsVets being F5 near Boromir, this is a nasty block to have to fight and will have the FV advantage against most armies in the game.

Conclusion

Well, that was fun. Maybe you weren't convinced, but I tried really hard. We're going to be taking a break from the In Defense Of series to get back to army and Legion reviews - but if there are models that you feel get maligned that we haven't covered yet, let us know! There are a few more profiles we already have in the docket, but we're always looking for more models to review (and we love a good challenge).

Next week, Centaur will be leading the steady advance through the Defence of the North supplement and in two weeks, we'll be crack open the Fall of the Necromancer sourcebook and review a Legion I've been playing with some recently - the Rise of the Necromancer Legion. This Legion is cool and has some unique game play options that you aren't encouraged to do with a normal Dark Powers list. Despite the limited set of profiles, this list actually has a LOT of list building options and you'll have a lot to think about when trying to field it. Find out what we've dug up on it next time - until then, happy hobbying!

15 comments:

  1. The veterans are a disappointing profile. Depending on what you take them for, they're generally overshadowed by the other warrior options, particularly the guard of the fountain court, rangers, and basic warriors. It doesn't help that they're probably a point overcosted. I feel like they could go down to the same cost as a basic warrior and the +1 courage, and situational fight 4 are a fair tradeoff for losing Shieldwall.

    The other 'fix' I've heard is to make them the heavy hitters of the Minas Tirith warriors. Give them +1 strength, or hatred Orc, or maybe even just a +1 to wound near Boromir/Faramir. You'd need to adjust their cost, but I think that could work. Then they fill in a niche in the Minas Tirith list.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Using 1 or 2 of them as a courage 5 bow-armed objective babysitter seems OK for 9pts each.

      Delete
    2. Totally agree - I've heard the Unexpected Podcast team say that they should get rid of the profile entirely and make it a 1pt upgrade that you can take on Warriors of Minas Tirith who have been taken in a warband with . An extra Courage can be useful, but Woodland Creature (for being in Ithilien), Mountain Dweller (or something appropriately named that treats rubble/rocky terrain as open ground), or as you said Hatred (Mordor) (or Orc, whatever) would be far more appropriate.

      Delete
  2. What are your opinions on a frontline of Osgiliath Veterans with a backline of Axemen of Lossarnach and the Banner of The White Tower?

    I've seen similar principles with using Elf Spearmen and Numenoreans for killing power, and I feel like a F5 Frontline with F4 S4 spears might give Minas Tirith some infantry based killing power it's missing.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. I do believe the Banner of The White Tower affects the Fiefdom warriors (since they have the Warrior, and Gondor keywords). So your Axemen of Lossarnach would already be Fight 5 without the need for the Veterans. Also Axemen of Lossarnach are only Strength 3, but if you want strength 4 in Good, you could ally in some Warriors of Rohan, who are cheap, and have access to axes to go to strength 4 (or even strength 5 if you take Grimbold). Warriors of Rohan backed by Rangers of Gondor with Boromir's banner gets you a strength 4/5 frontline, with fight 5 spear supports (who also have bows). That seems pretty solid.

      Delete
    2. Axemen are S3 and can't piercing strike if they're supporting. Also, they get the FV buff from the Banner of MT (they are Gondor Warriors) as well so they're F5 too.

      I feel like you'd be better off with using WoMTs as the frontline.

      Delete
    3. Now this is an interesting idea - though I think you'd be better served by running OsVets in front of Men-at-Arms (same price as the Axemen) with Imrahil around. OsVets may not be great value for cost when compared to WoMT or Fountain Court Guard, but compared to on-foot Knights of Dol Amroth, they are amazing - and as was mentioned above, you don't need the FV increase on the OsVet because you get that from the pikemen. The advantage you'd have over a WoMT is that you'd have a C4 (or C5) guy to charge a Terror wall. A KoDA has the exact same profile as an OsVet, but costs +2pts for +1FV (which is irrelevant if a pikeman is behind him) and -1 Courage if you have the Minas Tirith army bonus active . . . I'm having ideas now. :)

      Delete
    4. He he he, always happy to facilitate schemes and scheming.

      And apologies. For some reason I had it in my head that Axemen were S4. Maybe because Forlong is S5. Not the direction I was intending to go, but I'm glad it's going places.

      Delete
  3. If only there was some kind of LL allowing......mounted os vets.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Or if only there were a LL that had only them as your armored troop option/gave them a special rule for added relevance? But yes, a mount would be great too. :)

      Delete
  4. Great read - the profile seems like a lost opportunity and doomed to be Diorama Material - i do Like their Design ;)
    Looking forward to the LL reviews and especially the Necromancer one. Will be interesting to See what your Take on it is, compared to Mine :)

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Your article is ace by the way (and linked in the article that's going up) and was very helpful for forming my ideas about the Legion. Not to spoil too much, but there will be a few points I differ on, particularly as regards the importance of Castellans in the list. :)

      Delete
    2. Thx a Lot :D
      Great it helped! Looking forward to your opinion ;)

      Delete
  5. Interesting article and there's some options there for sure to get some use out of the OVs. For me though, they are still a second rate unit that, as the article to a degree shows, you REALLY have to work at to justify putting into a list. In terms of list building, the very little they have in their favour is outweighed by other troop types that for the same point cost just have more going for them. I guess the point for me is, if I had them already, this article gives some great ideas on how to at least get SOME use out of them. I don't have any though and, even having read this article, they are not a troop type I plan to pick up in the future unless there's a pretty drastic change to their profile. There's just way to much that's good already in MT that gets the job done and justify their place without having to really work at it.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. I actually think the profile change could be done without a drastic change - I present two of them here: https://tellmeatalegreatorsmall.blogspot.com/2023/08/if-tiberius-were-king-for-day-top-5.html.

      Delete