In Part II, Tiberius, Centaur, and Rythbryt recap how their 550 point lists did in this four round Good vs. Evil tournament. Now streaming on Spotify, Google Play, Apple Podcasts, and (probably) wherever you get your audio content!
The full lists are available over on the TMAT Blog, and if you missed Part I (covering the various lists and predictions), you can listen to it on Spotify or wherever else you listen to your podcasts!
tellmeatalegreatorsmall.blogspot.com
Music: Happy Haunts by Aaron Kenny
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Show Notes:
0:00 - Intro and Round 1: Domination (Arnor v. Camels, Elrond v. Balrog, Grey Company v. Balrog, Rohan v. Azog)
45:00 - Round 2: Assassination (Champs of Erebor v. Black Riders, Gil-Galad v. Bomb Team, Treebeard v. Sauron, Balin v. Buhrdur)
1:12:00 - Round 3: Command the Battlefield (Treebeard v. Balrog, Glorfindel v. Azog, Elrond v. Buhrdur, Rohan v. Black Riders)
1:50:00 - Round 4: Clash by Moonlight (Glorfindel v. Camels, Elrond v. Azog, Grey Company v. Balrog, Rohan v. Buhrdur)
Sounds like a great tournament! I'll be honest, I didn't expect the Grey Company to do quite so well in those scenarios (particularly Clash by Moonlight) but I expected nothing less from those Black Riders. In fact, I think they would have done excellently in the final scenario as well, in which you could have picked out the heroes and then just not died to scrape a win. Even just breaking the Dwarves through sheer weight of Black Darts is probably viable I think, although I've only run the numbers for 8 Wraiths. I was glad to hear you never deliberately quartered yourself though, that's not a fun way to win
ReplyDeleteOtherwise, I can sympathise with Tiberius' Balrog difficulties: I have decided to swear off it entirely after seeing the lash whiff so many times. That 4+ does not feel like a 50% probability to me!
Speaking of which, how do you play the lash against cavalry models? The FAQ says you move the whole model into base contact, but it feels very weird for the rider to stay mounted. I assume there would still be an In The Way for who takes the hit though, right?
Otherwise, sounds like a great tournament and I'm excited for that episode on all-hero lists :)
Oh, I move the whole model - bring a 40mm and 25mm spare base just to be safe. :) This is one of those things that doesn't make actual sense "realistically", but at the same time, you probably only have a handful of throwing axes/daggers/spears and we don't want to do recordkeeping on who has what, so if we depart from realism a little bit to make the game "easier," it's fine by me.
DeleteWhile I come down on the Balrog's lash this tournament, it's part of the deal - I had great success with the lash before the tournament and didn't have as great success getting it off when I wanted it at the tournament. These things happen. I do think your advice about not having the Drum and having more bodies would have been helpful in the Domination match and may have been helpful in the Clash match - would have had a few more bodies around the Balrog, but not sure I could have kept guys from Combatting into the Balrog (he mostly just fought Aragorn).
@Sharbie - Oh, I was as surprised as you on the Grey Company (as we joked about several times during the pod). The lack of a true horde on Domination certainly helped (although I have won it with the Grey Company against Goblin-Town, so...). If you can keep them together and they don't lose fights (which they tend not to do on foot, backed by the 6" banner and a Might point, as long as they have the Fight Value advantage), they will clear through D6 and below troops surprisingly fast. If I'd had time to sit and shoot without a Balrog breathing down my neck, I do think the legion as a whole could also be quite good in Clash by Moonlight: Aragorn basically has a free Heroic Accuracy each turn (for sniping back targets), and everyone basically gets S6 bows if you're willing to throw some Might to wound (or S7 in the twins' case). 7 Bows is low, but 550 is also a low points level for this legion. In the 700-800 range, where you can get closer to 15-20 bows (plus Legolas), I imagine it would function much like the Black Riders: if you decide to kill a particular hero, it will die. :-P
DeleteThat said, I did catch some lucky breaks. There was very little S3+ shooting, almost no magic (other than the magic I brought), no true hordes, no D7, and no blinding light. The fact that it was a good v. evil tournament definitely helped mitigate the risk of those (as evil has almost no D7, almost no blinding light, and very little S3+ shooting), and in a more conventional tournament those would be far more common. I also ended up not drawing any real hordes with the Grey Company (or even standard-size armies), although to be honest, I probably would have preferred fighting those to fighting a balrog each time. :-P
The big take-away for me (both from the tournament itself and my test games ahead of time) is that when you have Might and the opponent does not (or you have a ton of might and they have relatively little), you just have more flexibility. If you must kill something at range, you can usually kill it. If you must move first, you can do that, too. And if you have to kill things quickly in combat to break the enemy, you can rack up combat kills like no one's business. Aragorn also plugs a lot of holes with Mighty Hero (to keep things going), his heroic action suite (everything but Channel), and Anduril (so you can cut through anything). And the twins plus Halbarad allow you to go toe-to-toe with other lists that your rank-and-file Rangers might otherwise struggle with.
For a full-competitive build, I'm not sure this legion is better than a Rangers + Shire alliance (with Aragorn, Halbarad, and Gandalf for the blinding light, magic protection for Aragorn, and ability to transfix/compel--plus some supporting hobbit heroes and troops to pad the numbers). But win or lose, I've found it a blast to play. Sadly, that's not always true for all-hero armies, so I think that counts for something.
I find the Depths LL so interesting, because every time I look at it conceptually I go 'wow, that seems like a really scary force', and every time I listbuild with them I go 'wow, that's a lot of decent troops backing up a Balrog', and then every time I get them on the field nothing works at all. Maybe the Lash misses, maybe I fail to get that six (I took on Aragorn King with the Balrog recently. He called nothing but Heroic Defences but won every combat anyway and killed me in 4 turns), or maybe everything else just crumbles too fast for the Balrog to do enough. I'm still not sure whether it's actually worse than it looks, or whether it's just not for me.
DeleteThat's definitely some some interesting analysis with the Rangers, I'll really have to give them a go when I'm done training with the Vanquishers. I'd probably agree that you get a lot from a Shire contingent (Lobelia and Maggot look particularly tasty), and that that probably outweighs a free Anduril. It does seem like a really fun and flexible list though. Do you find it a bit of a glass cannon, where if things go wrong they go wrong fast?
My preferred build with Shire actually includes Anduril (as you need the sword to cut through really big things). I usually opt to drop 2-3 Dunedain to bulk out the shire contingent (as trading 1 Dunedain nets 6 hobbits, for a +5 on the model count). I have thought about adding other hobbit heroes (primarily Holfoot with his buff to let sheriffs two-hand, Baldo for the traps, and Maggot for the extra speed from the dogs), although that changes the composition of the list a fair bit. The real strength of the Rangers list comes from having 2-3 times the heroes your opponent does, and at least 3x the Might, which allows you to do more things in more places than they can match (which, in turn, allows you to pressure them into spending Might at the same rate you are, which leaves Aragorn free at the end of the game to do anything he wants). So I'm leery about dropping too many rangers for that reason.
DeleteIn theory, yes--the list is a glass cannon. D5 (for Grey Company) or D4 (if you run the normal Rangers contingent) will crumple in a fight, and to elite shooting (D4 can take losses from normal shooting). But the Fate point on every model does help with that (it's basically an upgraded Malbeth save on every model, except you also have a Might point on each model to convert 3s to saves if needed).
In practice, my experience is that as long as you're not facing a mass elite-shooting army (like elves or corsair crossbows), you usually have shooting dominance because you have Might behind your bows (and everyone has a bow). If you can find a spot in woods (thanks to Woodland creature) or behind some sort of cover, you can force most armies to come to you. Once you get into combat, the combination of that Fate point, two attacks on foot, a banner reroll, and a Might point means that at least in the early game you can win fights you'd otherwise lose (thereby staying alive). Against D6 or below models (which are most of them), you also have a pretty good chance of killing whatever you would have lost to (between the 2 S4 dice to wound), especially if you're able to chain heroic combats together (ping-ponging more rangers into successive heroic combats to get traps).
The result (for me, at least) is that after 1-2 turns of high-powered shooting, followed by 1-2 turns of successful chained heroic combats, I can usually break an average-size conventional army with little-to-no casualties (while Aragorn is running around mowing down troops or Bolg-ing low-level heroes). If you've copped 1-2 losses while the enemy has copped 15-20, it's usually very difficult for the opponent to recover from that. More often than not, the enemy is quartered while the Rangers are still at 70-80% strength (sometimes more).
The list is at its best against low-fight armies, where the 2 attacks and banner reroll (backed by Might) really shine. That, combined with the mass bows actually means you can have a pretty good go against conventional horde armies (in my test-games at 800, a 20-model Ranger force has reliably broken (and then quartered) a 100-model Goblin-Town force in Seize the Prize (while claiming the prize and getting it to the opponent's board half). Knowing when to engage and disengage is key (as is using Heroic Combats to kite away from the enemy to reset your vanguard line), but a single ranger within banner range with a Might point can pretty reliably tie up and beat 2-3 goblins over 2-3 turns (even if the gobbos are backed up by 2-3 supporters), and usually extract 2-4 kills in the process.
All that said, I expect Gandalf with a Shire contingent will only help things. While you're trading rangers, Gandalf gives everyone significantly more protection from shooting (to the point where you may be the best shooting army in the game), the ability to take on a third (or even fourth) big hero with his Strike + Transfix, and of course the ability to make Aragorn immune to magic (with Protection of the Valar) unless you're facing a cheeky Bombadil. I also expect the hobbits will help, too. Another 10-15 models means another 10-15 dice to help the Rangers win heroic combats, plug space on a flank, and of course add some shots at range (either with shortbows or stones). Given the number of bows and blinding light, you generally don't have to move very far unless the scenario demands it (and if it does, you have Aragorn's Marches for 7" move hobbits), and if nothing else, you have some cheap warriors who can split-off unfavorable combats (by, say, charging a bigger hero who has charged one of your Rangers).
DeleteHej there!
ReplyDeleteIs there a way to get the army lists in written form?:)
Would really appreciate it!
Greetings and thanks!:)
Absolutely--they're all at the bottom of this post: https://tellmeatalegreatorsmall.blogspot.com/2021/08/announcing-hunters-red-october-2021.html
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