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Wednesday, May 8, 2019

Dunlendings: Any Good?

Good morning gamers,

As we get ready for the TMAT GT this weekend, I've been thinking a lot about the army I didn't take to the tournament. :P While I love my Wood Elves (and I have never taken them to a GT before), my thoughts drift constantly to Isengard. In particular, to some of the unloved children in their army list: Dunlendings and Wild Men. While some very competitive gamers don't see the point in taking either of these guys (and some people on this blog agree as well), I've grown to like the Dunlendings (and to a lesser extent, Wild Men). To make them work, however, there are a few things you'll want to consider.



A Priori: Buying Dunland Warriors
If you look on the GW website (at least at the time of this writing - Ed: as of December 2019, Dunland has finally gotten some love and has both heroes and Warriors available), you won’t see any Dunland heroes there. Before I started collecting, there was a Dunlending plastic set (12 models) and up until a few years ago, there was the Thrydan Wolfsbane Foot/Mounted blister, a three-man metal blister for Wild Men of Dunland, and several two-man metal blisters for Dunlending Warriors and chieftains. With these models not available from the GW store and scarcely seen (and often a hefty price) on eBay, where do you even get the models?

The answer is simple: proxy them. Depend on the tournament you go to (free play often doesn’t have these kinds of restrictions), proxies might or might not be allowed. At GW-sponsored events, proxies are basically always nixed, though conversions of GW products seem to be acceptable if the model hasn’t been made yet. For the tournaments I run here at TMAT, the only requirements I place on proxies is that a) they have the gear of the model they represent, and b) they’re distinguishable from the rest of the models in the army (aka don’t use “some of these guys as Dunlendings” and “identical-looking models as Wild Men of Dunland”). I also tend to explicitly say that any models not available in the GW online store are automatically approved for use (so long as they follow the above-stated rules). I think there’s a good case for getting better-looking models than the GW ones EVEN if they’re available in the store (I have an epic-looking Erestor, for example), but I automatically approve anything that you couldn’t actually buy from GW before one of my tournaments.

Models that make good proxies tend to be Viking/Barbarian models – you can find some good ones from Warlord Games - particularly the Frostgrave miniatures, Viking Hirdmen/Saxon Thegn models for Dunlendings (since they're armored), and Saxon Ceorls/Viking Bondi for Wild Men of Dunland (or Ruffians - since they're unarmored). You’ll probably have to buy bases for them - GW bases are on the expensive side (10 for $5), but it's not THAT expensive to get the "right" bases (other groups will sell you bases for less, but not THAT much less).

Dunland Heroes: Thrydan and Chieftains
I don’t think this will be too controversial: 

You should bring Thrydan in any Isengard army

Sure, he’s got the Dunland keyword instead of the Isengard keyword, but consider:
  • Thrydan is one of three heroes in the Isengard list with access to Heroic Strike (Lurtz is slightly more expensive and Ugluk is 20-points cheaper);
  • Thrydan has a profile very similar to most named Isengard heroes (F5, S5, D5, A2, W2, C4, 3 Might) but for only 20-25 points more, he has a few boosts (1 extra Will/Fate, as well as a two-handed axe as an alternate choice for his sword – more on this in a moment);
  • Thrydan has a 12” Stand Fast that doesn’t require killing off your own models and with C4 and 2 Will, he’s pretty reliable at keeping any models who do need to test on the field;
  • He doesn’t get Woodland Creature OR the we-don’t-take-break-tests-like-ever rule from the army bonus, but Thrydan does get Mighty Blow, which is incredibly powerful against multi-wound models or single-wound models who get personal saves;
  • Thrydan has access to a horse and is the only hero who is able to mount up besides Sharku, Orc Captains, Saruman, and Grima (none of whom come anywhere close to the same combat power as Thrydan) – this does put him in the price range of Lurtz, but he’s comparable (especially when mounted).
Thrydan is only a Hero of Fortitude, so he’s a bit expensive for only bringing along 12 guys, but I think he’s worth it. Chieftains (if you run them with two-handed axes or axe-and-shield) are also a good bargain – at 5 points cheaper than Uruk-Hai Scout Captains, they’ve got F4 (less than Uruk heroes) but 2 Will (better for keeping them in the field) and while nowhere near as good as Thyrdan, they do give you reliable 6” Stand Fasts/Courage test passing at 30-points less. Not a bad deal. I have a proxy for one of these guys and I do use him every once in a while, but generally speaking I’d only bring one of these guys if you wanted a better non-Isengard hero to call Stand Fasts after your army gets broken to keep your non-Isengard warriors in the game.

Ok, you get the idea – Thrydan is good. Enough about him – let’s move on to Dunlending Chieftains. 

Everything we’ve said above applies in a lesser way to Dunlending Chieftains: for 55 points, you can get a S5/S6 model (who will be anywhere from D3-D5 if carrying a hand-axe-and-shield or D2-D4 if carrying a two-handed axe) who’s packing the same punch as Thrydan above, just without Mighty Blow (and knock down if you mounted Thrydan). While Dunlending Chieftains don’t benefit from the army bonuses, they do come with an extra point of Will (like Thrydan) and are Courage 4, so they’re reliable enough to keep models on the field. In general, I don’t think you should take them – named Uruk-Hai heroes have March (so you don’t NEED these guys for that) and they’ve got better Might stores (plus don’t have to take Courage tests until later in the game). Still, if you find you’re not able to kill enough D6/D8 models in a fight, a Dunlending Chieftain might be worth trying.

Dunland Warriors: Dunlending Warriors and Wild Men of Dunland
When you look at Dunlending Warriors, you’ll probably compare them in your head to Uruk-Hai Scouts: Uruk-Hai Scouts with shields cost 1 point more per model than Dunlending Warriors with shields and they gain +1 FV for it. Generally speaking, we’d all probably say “yeah, that makes Dunlending Warriors useless.” I disagree:
  • Dunlending Warriors, while only F3, are just as good as Uruk-Hai Scouts at winning fights against high-Fight models (Elves, mega heroes, monsters) and low-Fight models (many Hobbits and Goblins) – if your meta has them, F4 is wasted against many of these models (and a 50/50 roll-off isn’t a bad thing);
  • Dunlending Warriors can have their low Fight value supplemented by a supporting Uruk-Hai Warrior with pike – which will cost slightly more than an Uruk-Hai Scout supported by an Orc Warrior, but will offset the not-Fight-4 of the Dunlending and deal a ton more damage since both the Dunlending and the Uruk-Hai Warrior are S4 (and if you’re paying 18 points for two melee models, that’s about normal);
  • Dunlending Warriors are the only S4 warrior models who carry axes, allowing them to get to the prized S5 in a fight. Piercing Strike (which takes you to Strength 5) not only allows you to carve through D5 models on 4s, but allows you to crack D7 warriors (the apex of resilience for most armies) on 5s and D3 models (the most squishy of the squishy) on 3s. While Uruks are great because they come with S4 standard, against odd-Defense armies, you’re actually wasting the points you pay for S4…but that’s not the case with Dunlendings;
  • Dunlending Warriors are the only warrior models (besides Orc Warriors, Uruk-Hai Berserkers, and Wild Men of Dunland – more on them in a moment) who have access to two-handed axes – which, if supported by a pikeman or two, can carve through enemy ranks even better than their one-handed axe variants (D7 on 4s, D5 on 3s, D3 on 2s).
The fact that Dunlendings have axes is the key – recall how I said Thrydan was really good because he had both a sword AND a two-handed axe? With Piercing Strike, Thrydan can really expose himself if he loses a fight, but can also get to the so-desirable S6 when dealing wounds – with 2 Attacks base (3 if he’s mounted and on the charge), he’ll be wounding D3-D4 models on 2s, D5-D6 models on 3s, D7-D8 models on 4s, and D9-D10 models on 5s…with knock down if you mounted him and didn’t charge S6+ units…and Mighty Blow. Need to clear out some Dwarves? I found your guy… Even if you don’t mount him, 2 dice (plus spear/pike supports) will wound most models on 4s or 3s, so you should deal 1-2 wounds from the dice (which turns into 2-4 Wounds against the particular target). Since most heroes have 2 Wounds and 1 Fate point, you have a chance to one-turn-KO a hero you’re facing OR rampage through a Troll. Not bad at all…

In case you needed any more convincing, look at this table – let’s assume that since all the heroes below are F5, you’re facing a not-Trapped F4 model (hence reducing the likelihood that you Feint) and see how many wounds you should expect to see dealt each round (assuming you win the fight):

Average Expected Wounds Dealt
D3
D4
D5
D6
D7
D8
D9
Thrydan (S5, A2, sword, Mighty Blow)
2.7
2.0
2.0
1.3
1.3
0.7
0.7
Thrydan (S6, A2, axe, Mighty Blow, P-Strike*)
3.3
3.3
2.7
2.7
2.0
2.0
1.3
Lurtz (S5, A3, sword)
2.0
1.5
1.5
1.0
1.0
0.5
0.5
Ugluk (S5, A2, sword)
1.3
1.0
1.0
0.7
0.7
0.3
0.3
Mauhur (S5, A3, sword)
2.0
1.5
1.5
1.0
1.0
0.5
0.5
*Piercing Strike employed against even-Defense models only – makes no sense otherwise

This tells us many things: not least of which is that most Isengard captain heroes (due to having S5 and multiple attacks) can deal 1-2 damage each turn reliably to whoever they’re fighting (though this should also inform how risky a Heroic Combat with one of these guys is). While the difference in score might appear to be marginal, look at it this way: most of the characters we looked at above are going to absolutely crush a D3 model they face, but because most of the models you’re likely to fight are D4-D6, all of the Uruk-Hai heroes (Lurtz included) goes down to dealing only one (maybe two) wounds in a round. This is fine if you’re fighting warriors, since you only need 1 Wound to kill them. 

Against heroes, though, this is unreliable (especially if you’re entrenched with someone who’s better than you). Thrydan, on the other hand, gets good mileage out of Mighty Blow, dealing 1-2 damage against basically everyone with his sword and getting 2-3 damage against people with his axe (which he will have to two-hand). While Thrydan’s sword isn’t THAT much better at doing damage than Lurtz or Mauhur, it’s really the axe-wielding Thrydan who stands out when fighting heroes – reliably doing 2 wounds against his foes right up to D8 (which covers most heroes you’ll face).

Wild Men of Dunland are a very different beasts in many respects:
  • They’re only S3, though they can take two-handed axes AND have Hatred against Rohan models – so they can be pretty lethal in small packs against certain foes;
  • Even if you’re not fighting Rohan models, they’re basically Orc Warriors who suffer -1 Defense for +1 Courage, making them more reliable (marginally) at charging Terror models, staying after a force is broken, and resisting Courage-based special rules;
  • With only D3, there’s almost no reason NOT to use Piercing Strike whenever you’re given the chance – you’re probably dead anyway.
In general, I’d recommend just taking Orcs – being base D4 (and the potential to be D5 with a shield) plus their added gear options (spears as the main one, though shields bear mentioning again) at only the minor cost of a Courage point isn’t bad. They’re also available en masse from the GW store and on eBay (though they tend to buy high there).

Isengard Synergies: Putting It All Together
Isengard has LOTS of models to choose from – like Mordor, you have many options as an Isengard commander for what you want to run: cavalry, spam infantry, fast infantry, heavily-armored infantry, multiple-Attack infantry, monsters, and siege engines. While this is great if you're a tool-kit-oriented player, figuring out just what you want in your army (and how to squeeze it all in) can be tricky and frustrating. So, if you’re looking to put some Dunlendings in your army, here are some thoughts:
  • Always pair Dunlendings with Uruk-Hai Warriors with pikes (so as to provide a higher Fight value);
  • Dunlendings and Uruk-Hai pikemen make a good anvil, but with only Defense 5 (Defense 4 if you take two-handers on the Dunlendings) they need protecting – harassing units (crossbows, Uruk-Hai bows, Warg Riders) can be useful to drive an enemy’s battle lines towards your lines and distract fire from the main body of troops;
  • Small squads of melee troops can be used to protect the flanks of your anvil once the main bodies engage - you don't want these guys getting trapped or those pikemen getting pealed off into separate fights.

Here’s a sample army I’m anxious to try sometime (maybe after the tournament this weekend):

Pillage The West - 700 points
Lurtz with shield [Army Leader]
13 Uruk-Hai Scouts with Uruk-Hai bows

Ugluk
6 Uruk-Hai Warriors with shields
4 Orc Warriors with spears
1 Orc Warrior with spear and banner

Thrydan Wolfsbane
6 Dunlending Warriors with shields
6 Uruk-Hai Warriors with pikes

Mauhur
6 Uruk-Hai Marauders with shields

Since we left Saruman at home today, we have a very respectable 46 models (with 9 warrior slots remaining) and nearly maximum bow slots. Two of the four warbands (Lurtz’s squad and Mauhur’s squad) are composed fully of Woodland Creature models, so you can rush through wooded ground easily (to get to objectives or pursue fleeing models). This army is composed of 6 different types units (many in small clusters) that are all intended to do different things. Let’s take a look at the different pieces:
  • Lurtz brings up the main body – 13 Scouts with Uruk-Hai bows (for 14 Uruk-Hai bows in the warband). These bows are short-range (18”), but high Strength (S3) – reliable once they close and DEADLY in Maelstrom scenarios where you can deploy Lurtz’s squad wherever you want (just outside of charge range but still inside shooting range). Lurtz himself not only provides Heroic Strike, but a reliable F5 S5 A3 3M profile on offense with a good selection of heroic actions.
  • Thrydan Wolfsbane also has Heroic Strike and a good offensive profile (as we discussed earlier). He leads half of the anvil: 6 Dunlending Warriors with 6 Uruk-Hai Warriors with pikes. The pikes are good not only to provide F4 to the fight, but also because you can double-support certain models (relying on your Dunlendings to shield in order to keep themselves alive). Thrydan can benefit from having some pike supports too, just saying.
  • Ugluk is the cheapest hero with Heroic Strike in this army list and leads 6 heavily-armored Uruk-Hai Warriors and 6 cheap spearmen (five Orc Warriors with spears, one with a spear and banner). Taking Orcs not only saves you points so you can grow your numbers, but allows you to have cheap models you can use Head-Taker on if you really need to keep your models in play (but if you can keep Thrydan in play, you’ll have a 12” Stand Fast – so keep these two squads near each other so they can cover each other late in the game). Thematically, we could have left the heavily-armored Uruks at home and instead given shields to all of our Orcs, but I like having these guys in here – you can’t substitute easily for D6 (plus my gaming group’s meta is dominated by Elf bows, Dwarf bows, and S3 horde armies, so having some D6 is good).
  •  Mauhur leads the last group of warriors – some fast Uruk-Hai Marauders with shields. Without any spears, this group can easily get overwhelmed, but in some scenarios, getting somewhere fast is key. In other scenarios, racing around an enemy flank (or bull-rushing their archers) can spare the rest of your team a lot of hurt. Between Mauhur’s speed and Lurtz’s flexibility of deployment, you should have options for driving your opponent closer to your ranks (and taking out his spear supports as he rushes into your lines).

You’ll note in this list that Dunland plays a small part – I don’t think they’re an anchor for the army. Unless you don’t expect to fight a lot of Fight 4, downgrading any of your Uruk-Hai Warriors or Uruk-Hai Marauders into Dunlendings may save you a few points per model, but you’ll want to pay more money to provide pike supports to them (Dunlendings + Orcs = only F3 = gets pasted by most battle lines). Having only a handful of Dunlendings in your army also helps because your opponent will underestimate their power – his focus will be on keeping the F4 D6 Uruk-Hai Warriors from killing his guys. If he’s got D5/D7 units, let loose that Piercing Strike to deal S5 hits after you win – let THAT freak him out. They’ll also be near Thrydan, who you should ALWAYS say how many wounds you actually do JUST so Mighty Blow doesn’t surprise anyone.


Well, we've got a tournament this weekend - should be great. I'll hopefully get up a post with a few pics and a run-down of how the Elves of Lothlorien did. After that, we continue our discussion of evil armies by going in-depth into Ringwraiths and redoing a post we did a while back. Should be fun. Until next time, happy hobbying!

16 comments:

  1. "Dunlending Warriors are the only S4 warrior models who carry axes, allowing them to get to the prized S5 in a fight."

    I assume you mean "in this army list"? :-) Alternatively, I assume you simply overlooked the elite Durins Folk infantry with S4 who can take axes in spades (Iron Guard, Khazad-Guard, Vault Wardens)? ;-)

    On a more serious note, S4 with Piercing Strike is relatively rare and almost always costs more than 8 points. Morannons are probably slightly better at it than Dunlendings for the same cost (they can take a pick for free, and get D6 with their shield for 8 points instead of D5), but the ability to go from S4 to S5 if you need it has value.

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    1. Also Rohan Helmingas - one of the reasons to still field an infantry spam with Rohan (other than the fact that you can team them up with cheap Laketown spear support because if you're not using the army special rules, why not, :P ).

      But yes: Dunlendings are great because you can get that bump to S5 for dirt cheap. Love that about them.

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    2. Yes, I meant in the army list - others have access to Piercing Strike (Orcs, Wild Men), but they aren't S4. They do just fine at cleaving through D6 lines, but to get thru D7 is trickier.

      Morannons are better than Dunlending Warriors (to say nothing of their flexibility to have maces instead of axes) - like the comparison between Wild Men of Dunland and Orc Warriors, you trade -1D to get +1C (which is generally not a great trade - hence why I recommend taking Orcs instead of them).

      Rohan Helmingas basically ARE Dunlendings, except that they can take throwing spears or war horns instead of two-handed axes (and have the flexibility of using swords...but who wants that when you could have axes?).

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  2. There were never plastic dunlendings

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    1. I saw this blister a while back - turns out it was metal: https://www.ebay.ie/itm/Games-Workshop-LoTR-Dunlendings-Dunlending-Warriors-Metal-Figures-Lord-of-Rings/264246786865?hash=item3d8655fb31:g:-4AAAOSwIztckWRL.

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  3. A problem with having dunlendings lead by a uruk hai, when 50% broken dunlendings must test courage, but the hero cannot Stand Fast cause it doesn't take the courage test at that time.
    Am I right? Came up in my last game

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    1. GW added a section on this in their Rules commentary (found here: https://www.warhammer-community.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/02/MESBG-Designers-Armies-of-the-Lord-of-the-Rings-1.pdf), relevant part is on the last page:

      Q: If an Isengard army is Broken, but has not yet suffered 66% casualties, then models with the Isengard keyword do not take Courage tests for being Broken, but those without do as per the Army Bonus. In this situation, can an Isengard Hero still make a Courage test for being Broken in order to use their Stand Fast! special rule to allow Warrior models without the Isengard keyword to stay and fight? (p.166)
      A: Yes, however, should they fail their Courage test they will still be removed as a casualty, so be careful when opting to make these Courage tests!

      As pointed out above, though, if you take Thrydan (or even a chieftain), you have a good shot at passing Courage tests thanks to their above-average amount of Will and decent Courage (C4). Still, someone like Ugluk could choose to make a Stand Fast (though he isn't obligated to) and use Head Taker if you were really worried.

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  4. Thank you for your insights! I just won a local tournament here in Italy (600pt blue vs blue only green alliances)
    I brought Lurtz with 12 uruk archers and one warg, ugluk & thrydan on horse setted as yours.
    I smashed through angmar, khazad dum and minas tirith with that

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    1. That's awesome - just got a mounted Thrydan myself and am looking into using him soon. At 600pts, having 3 Strike heroes who are also S5 must have been pretty great...

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  5. I’m just going through all the Dunlending posts as I have Thrydan, the new heroes and a bunch of warriors arriving soon. I like the idea of supporting a Dunlending with 2 pike armed Uruks, relying on the Dunlendings to shield to stay alive but just realised in the latest version of the rules (2023) it’s no longer a valid tactic I think. In order to shield, all models involved in the combat have to shield and they can’t get any support 😟 Really great articles. I thought I’d pass on the Wild Men but my buddy has a Rohan Army and, with the arrival of the Wildman Oathmaker Hero I think the wild men went up a notch. Damn shame about Shielding / Pike support option being no more though. Guess they thought it was too OP.

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    1. It's actually been that way for a while - the goal in the list was to have 3 of the 6 Dunlendings get 2 pike supports while the remaining 3 defend by shielding. This allows you to get 2-3 dice/fight without having your pikes work like spears. Since writing this article, I came up with a great formation for using Uruk-Hai pikes - you can read it here: https://tellmeatalegreatorsmall.blogspot.com/2021/07/unexpected-military-formations-epic.html.

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    2. Great article that is still useful today. Not tried the legions at all but tried a bunch of Dunlendings with Thrydan and Gorulf today in army that was 50/50 Uruks and Dunland. Not overly impressed. They were up against Elves and more than anything, this game hammered home to me the importance of Heroic Strike, an action I was always pretty lukewarm about before. But having both of these heroes repeatedly bounce off an Elf Hero, being unable to win the duels due to draws and the Elf's F6, basically ended up with them achieving very little. A few times I didn't bother with Strike and when it finally clicked of course I rolled 1 on the D6, then a damn 6 on the drawn duel AGAIN handing the duel to the Elf! Net result, not a lot of damage being done by way too many models and points. I'll take Dunland again as flavour warbands but felt I could have done better with pure Uruks. I'm sure they are better in their Legion but they do little use in an Isengard force IMO, given Uruks do everything they can do but better, perhaps with the exception of Thrydan. One thing we got a bit confused with, Gorulf can call a free Defence if fighting an enemy hero (an action I find pretty garbage normally, costs a Might point to die more slowly) and would never call it if it wasn't free (but even then, it stops you calling other far more useful Actions IMO) but we concluded he could STILL use Piercing Strike, effectively at no risk. Declares Heroic Defence, can then only be wounded on a 6, and also Piercing and, while his Defence drops by D3 if he loses, with Defence up he can only be wounded on a 6 anyway?

      Another thing this game reaffirmed for me, Vrasku and Uruk crossbows are absolutely garbage and not worth their points at all. Took Vrasku + 4 xbows, 109 points and they basically killed two Elf spears!! Can't shoot if they move and firing a total of only 6 shots, diluted further if ITW tests are involved. I'd have been FAR better taking 11 Uruks and getting into a fight with them. Never again, Vrasku or the crossbows.

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    3. I don't like crossbows either - though as front-line troops in the Assault Legion, they're pretty good (though that is also due to volume - six shots from anything won't be worth it). Dunlendings aren't D6, but if you're fighting Elves, they're not going to be paying for F4, so you can get some savings there. Isengard by and large has a F5/D5 cap for its Strike heroes, which is rough against Elves - no matter how you run them, you need to outdice the Elves to make up for the higher FVs. It's hard . . .

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    4. Yep. Bit confused about the Dunlendings D6 comment? Pretty much the only way I could see to stand a chance against Elf heroes with Dunlending heroes is to Strike every time and hope you can get to above F6 so that you win duels, unless the Elf player happens to roll low. Either that or take Mordor!

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    5. They aren't Defense 6 - sorry. :-)

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